Corn and Soy free......?

[DeannaOR]

I am feeding corn and soy free chicken feed, but I realized that as educated as I am about dog and cat nutrition...I know little about chicken and turkey nutrition. So my question is, are people wanting to avoid soy and corn in chicken feed for nutritional reasons? or does it have more to do with political/economic reasons?

 

[Leahs Mom]

For me it is nutrition reasons.

A huge percentage of soy & corn grown in the US is Genetically modified (GMO). There is a whole lot of information regarding the dangers of GMO foods out there if you look. The mercola.com website has a lot of that information with links to studies done on the effects of GMO items on health. Go to the site and search for genetically modified or GMO and there are many footnoted articles.

I don't believe corn is bad for chickens - just be careful that it is not genetically modified.

That being said, soy is one of those things that, it seems, was never meant for consumption unless it is fermented. It is not healthy for you or for animals. However the US has an abundance of it and has to do something with it. It ends up being presented as a health food but has had some pretty devestating effects on health all around.

You can read about soy in The Whole Soy Story. http://www.amazon.com/The-Whole-Soy...9751/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338074898&sr=8-1

As far as feeding soy to chickens, it is NOT a food that they would choose to eat on their own. I have even read of folks that grew several grain crops and some soy alongside for their chickens and try as they might, they couldn't get the chickens to eat even the soy plants let alone the beans. If you'll notice, feed that has soy in it always has "roasted soy" rather than raw. That is because it causes nutritional problems in it's raw state (if you could even get a chicken to eat it). It has to be roasted to make it somewhat useable nutritionally.

Now...when was the last time you saw a group of wild chickens sitting around a campfire roasting soybeans? (I just had to say that....quite a picture, huh?)

I know I didn't footnote any of my statements but I encourage you to do a bit of a study on the effects of soy on humans. As a quick reference, the mercola.com website has lots of links to articles and studies on soy as well.

 

[kizanne]

Well I myself feed organic corn (non-GMO) and soy free feed for a large variety of reasons. Because I can, not everyone can afford it but I can and that is what I want.

I want it for many of the previously mentioned reasons but I'll state mine.

1. I don't like GMO, I garden and I think that GMO is killing off heirloom sustainable plants especially if they are wind pollinated like corn it can be hard not to get contaiminated even if you are growing your own heirloom corn. Monsanto is relentlessly pursuing farmers and through different corporations under their umbrella own a huge portion of the seed market which will make it harder to get natural products.

2. I don't like GMO because they are used specifically to spray acres upon acres with roundup which I don't want on my food right before harvest anyway, don't care how safe the company says it is (and the FDA agrees without independent studies) same company that said DDT was safe and agent Orange by the way. We can totally trust that Round up which will kill all plant life it touches (except this corn) won't hurt us. Or bees, which in recent years have seen a dramatic decline and are necessary to life. Or butterflies which are just one of my favorite insects.

3. GMO soy and the demand for Soy in general is literally killing the rainforests. Brazil is one of the main exporters of soy and guess where they are getting all that crop land from. You guessed it the rainforests.

4. Soy has natural hormones in it. I try to avoid large amounts of soy period as too much of our food is hormone regulated now. I also believe soy is better when fermented like tofu or soy sauce. Not all the soy solids and crap stuck in every processed food you can find.

5. Soy would not be a natural chicken food.

6. I'm getting to the age (whatever that is, it's different for different people), that I care what I put in my body. I am not totally doing anything healty, yes I still eat out, no I'm not a vegan (of course I believe meat is good for your body). I can easily make my eggs healthier for myself by feeding good feed and letting them free range and providing veggie when available. I have no doubt that my eggs are nutritionally superior to the grocery store and I know the taste is better.

7. By feeding them Organic, Soy-Free feed I get extra money that offsets the extra cost so it doesn't even cost me extra except when I raise broilers for myself. ($3/dz)

8. All the ingredients in my bag I understand or can look up and understand. I don't like any bag labeled "Grain products, plant protein products, processed grain byproducts"

I like to know what is in my food/feed.

9. Purina is a very large company and I don't want to wonder where was this bag made. Too much stuff is now made overseas particularly China, including food, pet food and ingredients for food and pet food. China is just not regulated right now and too many mistakes are coming out of there. Also many of these countries do not hold to our pesticide/herbicide standards so you don't know what's in some of the large feed company bags. Remember the dog food that was killing dogs? Or the baby food that gave them gallstones? Or the toys with lead paint. Or melamine being added to anything that was going to be protein tested?

10. GMO corn has been so popular that now they want to upgrade it so the corn grows BT in the corn. I like BT as an organic control of catepillars, but I want it on the outside of my food so that it can be washed off not on the inside. I also would like it added only when needed not 100% of the time. I love innovation for most things. I dislike GMO and don't think it has been tested enough to be called 'safe'.

 

[NYREDS]

The only reason someone may be indifferent to GMOs is that they are uninformed. The first video reviews a study which had controls for RoundUp residue and the NK603 (GMO corn) grown without the RoundUp. Que the first video to 8:30 to go directly that part of the study, which speaks to the gene itself:

VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Njd0RugGjAg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9NWyQKGnYes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N6_DbVdVo-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eUd9rRSLY4A


Although there are emotional appeals in these videos, there is also fact. What maybe one of the scariest aspects of the GMO predicament is the huge conflict of interest of Monsanto executives running the FDA and being appointed the current Food Tzar. The Movie Burzynski changed by perspective on the FDA.

There's a lot of conflicting data concerning GMO foods. Another reason for being "indifferent" to GMOs could be that the individual has bought into different information than you have. Consider the possibility that someone could be as well informed as you are & that person may have arrived at different conclusions-I know, hard to believe.
If you're looking for scientific information youtube's definately the place to go though. Stay away from those pesky Scientific Journals. They may not tell you what to think, believing that you may already know how to think.

 

[Soy Free LIfe]

Here is a study done by Ohio State University which discusses soy fed to chickens and the transfer of those phytonutrients into the eggs and tissues. Also mentioned is how long the soy remains with the birds after soy consumption has been discontinued: http://www.phoenixorganicfeed.com/u..._transfer_from_feed_into_eggs_and_tissues.pdf

 

[DeannaOR]

Now...when was the last time you saw a group of wild chickens sitting around a campfire roasting soybeans? (I just had to say that....quite a picture, huh?)

Thank you Leah...I avoid soy for myself and I would never feed it to my dogs or cats (they eat a raw diet), but there are things in the organic, soy and corn free feeds that I asked myself the same question you pose..."would this be a natural part of their diet?". Like fish meal. I have the same issue with commercial feeds for horses. In fact one of the ingredients they use in those is chicken egg. My horse would never seek out and eat chicken eggs!

I frequently say to people regarding their dogs... "when was the last time you saw a dog grazing in a wheat or corn field?" and.... "dogs do not catch their prey and line up in front of a grill master in the woods at 10 am and 5pm to have that rabbit they caught cooked before they eat it."
(this is usually a conversation about why I do not feed them grains, why I feed raw uncooked foods and why I don't feed on a schedule)

Thank you for the links..I already read Mercola frequently, but I will check out the other.

 

[manaze88]

I posted this in another thread, thought it would go well in here. I am allergic to soy (and gluten), and thought that I was allergic to eggs. Through some random internet searching, I came across an article (linked below) about soy proteins being found in eggs. Additional research allowed me to find a local farmer that advertised soy-free eggs. Half a dozen eggs later, I had my own chicks, and they were on a soy free diet.

Regarding the soy in eggs, this is a good/short reference that I keep handy:

http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi/Vargas Galdos Dante Miguel Marcial.pdf?osu1236706764

The study was done to show the benefits of soy in a chickens diet. Not only does the soy protein end up in the egg, itself, but it also ends up in the meat of the chicken. So, depending on your level of allergy to soy, you may or may not react to commercial eggs or chicken. On top of that, if your allergy is not as severe as that of others, you may inadvertently ingest soy on a regular basis, which over a long period, could have cumulative effects on your health.

Using that article as a starting point for myself, I've done quite a bit of searching to find answers about the same for gluten. So far, as I have found, the gluten proteins are broken down, and do not have an impact on the eggs/chicken (or those that eat them). For myself, I found a local farm that advertised free-range/soy-free eggs, and I gave them a shot. I can tell you that I do not have a reaction to those eggs, but do have a reaction to commercial (store-bought) eggs. I even have reactions to products that contain egg in them.

When I started doing all the research, early this year, I made up my mind to get my own chickens if it turned out I could still eat eggs. As a vegetarian, the eggs are a good source of protein, and if I could control what the chickens eat, then I could have a better grasp on actually controlling what I eat!

With regard to organic, that's a personal preference of mine, most of what I eat is organic. I feel like I'll actually be eating organic eggs if I can actually feed them organic food. It just so happens that the company I found that sells the soy-free feed makes it with organic ingredients.

 

[Soy Free LIfe]

Soy contains phyto-estrogen, Diadzein and Genistein. Estrogen is used to induce cancer in cells so laboratory researchers can experiment with them. See this excerpt from "World Without Cancer" by Edward Griffin. This excerpt discusses the role estrogen plays in cancer. I thought it relevant due to talk of estrogen hormone substances found in soy, and a breast cancer survivor acquaintance of mine who took to the time to explain her devout stance against soy to me.


Page 82 -

If it is true that the trophoblast cell is brought
into being by a chain reaction which involves es-
trogen or other steroid hormones, then it would
follow logically that an unnaturally high exposure to
these substances would be a factor that favored the
onset of cancer. And, indeed, this has been proven
to be true. The use of diethylstilbestrol as a fatten-
ing agent for cattle was halted in 1972 because it was
proven that this steroid, which was present in trace
amounts in the beef at our grocery stores, had
caused stomach cancer in experimental rats ?

It also has been demonstrated that women taking
contraceptive pills — especially those which are
predominantly estrogen — not only undergo irrever-
sible breast changes, but became almost three times
more cancer-prone than women who do not. This
fact was stressed by Dr. Otto Sartorius, Director of
the Cancer Control Clinic at Santa Barbara General
Hospital in California, who then added:

Estrogen is the fodder on which carcinoma [cancer] grows.
To produce cancer in lower animals, you first introduce
an estrogen base.

There is a slight confusion factor in all this due
to the fact that, occasionally, some cancers appear
to respond to hormone therapy — the deliberate
administration of estrogen or testosterone to the
cancer patient. But the only cases in which this kind
of therapy is rewarded with favorable results are
those involving cancer of the sexual glands, such as
the breasts or prostate, or those organs that are
heavily affected by sexual hormones. Female patients
are given male hormones and male patients
are given female hormones . The apparent favorable
action is the result of the hormones' attempt to
oppose or neuter those glands. If the cancer is retarded,
it is because the organ, is retarded.

The side-effects of this kind of therapy, of course,
are the altering of the sexual physiology of
the patient. Also, the beneficial results it produces,
if any, are usually described by physicians as pallia-
tive, which means that the cancer is not cured, only
retarded temporarily. But the worst part is that
— especially in the case, of men using estrogen— the
presence of unnaturally high levels of steroids
throughout the system could well be a factor favorable
to the production of new cancer tissue other
than at the primary site.

When cancer begins to form, the body reacts
by attempting to seal it off and surrounding it with
cells that are similar to those in the location where it
occurs. A bump or lump is the initial result. Dr.
Jones continues:

In order to counteract the estrogenic ac-
tion on the trophoblast, the body floods
the areas of the trophoblast in a sea of
beta-glucuronidase (BG) which inactivates
all estrogen on contact . At the same
time the cells of the tissues being invaded
by the trophoblasts defensively multiply
in an effort at local containment.

Usually the efforts of the body to control
the nidus of trophoblast are successful,
the trophoblast dies, and a benign polyp
or other benign tumor remains as a
monument to the victory of the body over
cancer.

Under microscopic examination, many of
these tumors are found to resemble a mixture or
hybrid of both trophoblast and surrounding cells; a
fact which has led some researchers to the premature
conclusion that there are many different types
of cancer. But the degree to which various tumors
appear to be different is the same degree to which
they are benign; which means that it is the degree to
which there are nofi-cancerous cells-within it. The
greater the malignancy, the more these, tumors
begin to resemble each other, and the more clearly
they begin to take on the classic characteristics of
pregnancy trophoblast. And the most malignant of
all cancers — the chorionepitheliomas— are almost
indistinguishable from trophoblast cells. For, as
Dr. Beard pointed out over seven decades ago, they
are one in the same.

An interesting sidelight "to these facts is that
trophoblast cells produce a distinct hormone that
readily can be detected in the urine. This is known
as the chorionic gonadotrophic hormone (CGH). If
it is true that cancer is trophoblast, then it is logical
to expect that cancer cells also would secrete this
hormone. And, indeed, they do. It is also true that
no other cell is known to produce CGH. 1 This
means that, if CGH is detected in the urine, it-
indicates that there is present either normal preg-
nancy trophoblast or abnormal malignant cancer.
If the patient is a woman, she either is pregnant or
has cancer. If he is a man, cancer can be the only
cause.

The significance of this fact is far-reaching. A
simple urine test similar to the well-known rabbit
1 test for pregnancy can detect the presence of cancer
long before it manifests itself as illness or a lump,
and it throws serious doubt upon the rationale be-
hind surgical biopsies . In fact, many physicians are
convinced that any cutting into a malignant tumor,
even for a biopsy, actually increases the likelihood
that the tumor will spread. (More on that in a later
chapter.) But, in any event, there is questionable
need for such procedures in view of the fact that the
CGH urine test is available and proven to be highly
accurate. In fact, Dr. Manuel Navarro* Professor
of Medicine and Surgery at the University of Santo
Tomas in Manilla,, has offered this test to American
physicians and reports better than
95% accuracy with both cancer and non-cancer pa-
tients. Almost all of the so-called errors have been
"in showing cancer activity within;patients who pre-
sumably did not have cancer. But in a large percen-
tage of these, those same patients later developed
clinical manifestations of cancer, suggesting that
the CGH test was accurate after all."

This information is why most well-read cancer survivors avoid all sources of estrogen and therefore avoid soy too. Soy even in its organic or GMO free form contains phyto-estrogen, Diadzein and Genistein. This is also the reason why so many people in Arizona are becoming a part of www.phoenixorganicfeed.com

 

[Leahs Mom]

Haven't commented on the thread in a long time but thought I'd say that I get my grains from a local feed mill to make my basic feed. When I originally started with chickens I had the mill make it to order (no soy, organic, and as much animal protein as possible with Fertrel as the mineral mix). I had to purchase a minimum of 300 lbs and I shared with another person I found in an on-line organic chicken group. (300 lbs is a lot for 6 chickens...but much less than some mills require if you're having them mix it special.)

After about a year I decided to just purchase the components and make it myself. The feed is very basic as I also feed other items especially during the winter when they can't free-range. They get raw liver and ground meat as an additional animal protein source as available.

A couple of sources I found to get liver are a local butcher shop that sells local farm meats that are raised without antibiotics and hormones. They also sell grass-fed when available. They sell liver at .50/lb. for animal feed but I prefer not to use it unless there is no source of grass-fed as I perfer to have liver from healthy animals (and, of course, a grain-fed animal is not going to be at optimum health). I have a friend that hunts venison and he has started routinely bringing the livers to me for the chickens so I most often have free liver from a source which still gets to choose what it eats without it being forced into a feed program.

I partially freeze the livers so they are easy to cut, then cut them into tiny pieces and lay them out on a cookie sheet lined with parchment paper to freeze. Then they go into a zip-lock ready to break some off, thaw and feed.

I guess the purpose of my post is this: It is not hard to make a basic feed with a very few ingredients and use that as the basis for your feed if they get to range and have other variety of foods available to them as well. I encourage folks to check with feed mills in your areas as the price for a 50 lb bag of organic feed grains or field peas and a bag of fertrel and some fish meal is not as expensive as purchasing the ready-made, overcooked varieties. Even the ones that are just ground are often rancid by the time you are able to feed it and you lose a lot of the nutrients in the mix. And if you can find a mill that will sell you the items it is usually much less expensive than purchasing it at a "human" store!

I love having the whole grains ready to grind fresh so it's not going rancid. I also lacto- ferment my feed as well and they get a good source of probiotics not only from the ferment but from the addition of other fermented items and some avian probiotics added from time to time.

I would love to be in an area in which I didn't have to feed any legumes at all to my birds. Based on what I've research over the last few years it seems that they are not designed to eat legumes at all. I keep striving for ways to reduce veg. protein and increase animal/insect protein as much as possible. I have several ideas to that end and keep working toward a way to continue a more natural diet for them even throughout the winter months as well!

 

[manaze88]

Late reply, but during molt I start throwing black oil sunflower seeds out, cooking up oatmeal and mixing in ground beef. That's just my way of increasing protein without getting soy protein in the eggs.