Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[no fly zone]

I didn't dare ask, but i’m happy to hear this. Can I ask how are you doing ?

Still bummed out I could not save Skeksis.

 

[GregnLety]

Still bummed out I could not save Skeksis.

I feel the same about Big Boy. A few days ago his son was stolen while on loan to a friend. Yesterday I found myself looking through our naked necks and crosses for signs of Big Boy. The closest I can find is a cross from a silkie hen. Neck up the cockrell looks silkie but the body and feathering resemble Big Boy.

 

[no fly zone]

I feel the same about Big Boy. A few days ago his son was stolen while on loan to a friend. Yesterday I found myself looking through our naked necks and crosses for signs of Big Boy. The closest I can find is a cross from a silkie hen. Neck up the cockrell looks silkie but the body and feathering resemble Big Boy.View attachment 3607007

Stolen? I'd be getting my Liam Neeson on.

 

[BDutch]

@Shadrach ,
Thanks for reacting on all the different problems Manue mentioned. These are common issues that are important for chicken farmers to know about. You asked for our experience and I am happy to say I haven’t had any problems with bumble foot, coccidiosis (as far as I know), no problems with worms and not even with injuries that needed mending. But I do invest in good living circumstances and prevention.

The only problem with parasites I ever had was with red mites. The casualties I had were fox victims, raptor victims, a heart attack or stroke death, and once an internal infection after laying eggs without shell. Also had sneezing chicks once that really worried me and and a killer-rat (killed two chicks).

I know you don’t trust DE in any way, but what you say is not completely true imho.
Please check this out. Its seems to be from a reliable source.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21673156/

 

[MaryJanet]

Still bummed out I could not save Skeksis.

I feel the same about Big Boy.

And I'm still sad about Lorna the Dorking pullet.

They're a very endearing species.

 

[Perris]

Sometimes saving a life is more important than what some study writes about the long term effects of the drugs used to fight it and the benefits of gradually acquired natural tolerance.

Only if that one life is valued more highly than all other lives. I favour acting for the benefit of the many over the benefit of the few, or one.

 

[Perris]

Before I made the changes to how chicks were hatched and reared in Catalonia and introduced medicated feed over 80% of the chicks died from coccidiosis. It was heartbreaking.

Yes it's heart-breaking to lose any chicken, and I imagine we've all dealt with coccidiosis. Do you KNOW it was coccidiosis that killed them, as opposed to any number of other pathogens in that evidently highly challenging environment that cause similar symptoms? Did you get autopsies/ necropsies done? You said you changed how chicks were reared and hatched as well as introduced medicated feed; how are you sure it was the medicated feed, and not the other changes, that made the difference? (Remember my chick survival rate on no commercial or medicated feed was 11 out of 12 last year, which was the best ever here.) And even if it was a particularly nasty strain of coccidia there, it isn't everywhere or indeed in most places. The licensing smorgasbord tells me that the treatments are not obviously appropriate to the task, or there would be better consensus on which product to use.

Blaming coccidiosis for illness and death can be a bit like blaming the feed: easy no-discussion explanations for things gone wrong, that may be correct explanations, but that also distract from other possible causes, like overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, poor nutrition. I trust that Richards and MSD know what they're talking about, and the mortality rate is very low, and immunity is acquired, according to both of them. Treatment for these professionals is driven by commercial concerns, because birds that have had it as chicks may fail to reach their productive potential. I don't see that's much different from giving them addictive chick feed so they over-eat in order to reach their productive potential.

PS Not all who oppose these treatments are 'eco warriors'; my worry for the environment here is the accelerated development of disease resistance and the enfeeblement of the hosts, be they chickens or people.

 

[Shadrach]

@Shadrach ,
Thanks for reacting on all the different problems Manue mentioned. These are common issues that are important for chicken farmers to know about. You asked for our experience and I am happy to say I haven’t had any problems with bumble foot, coccidiosis (as far as I know), no problems with worms and not even with injuries that needed mending. But I do invest in good living circumstances and prevention.

The only problem with parasites I ever had was with red mites. The casualties I had were fox victims, raptor victims, a heart attack or stroke death, and once an internal infection after laying eggs without shell. Also had sneezing chicks once that really worried me and and a killer-rat (killed two chicks).

I know you don’t trust DE in any way, but what you say is not completely true imho.
Please check this out. Its seems to be from a reliable source.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21673156/

I've read it before.

"both breeds of hens that were dusted with DE had reduced number of mites."

I can reduce the mite load on a chicken by hitting it with a soft brush.

What I can't do by hitting it with a soft brush is completely rid them of the parasite and that is what I want, and the chicken needs.

It's not a matter of not trusting, it's a matter of it not working, not for me, not for other people I know who have tried it, and not for you either from reading the lengths you have had to go to in oreder to makes sure at least some of the mites come in to hard contact with the DE.

 

[Shadrach]

Yes it's heart-breaking to lose any chicken, and I imagine we've all dealt with coccidiosis. Do you KNOW it was coccidiosis that killed them, as opposed to any number of other pathogens in that evidently highly challenging environment that cause similar symptoms? Did you get autopsies/ necropsies done? You said you changed how chicks were reared and hatched as well as introduced medicated feed; how are you sure it was the medicated feed, and not the other changes, that made the difference? (Remember my chick survival rate on no commercial or medicated feed was 11 out of 12 last year, which was the best ever here.) And even if it was a particularly nasty strain of coccidia there, it isn't everywhere or indeed in most places. The licensing smorgasbord tells me that the treatments are not obviously appropriate to the task, or there would be better consensus on which product to use.

Blaming coccidiosis for illness and death can be a bit like blaming the feed: easy no-discussion explanations for things gone wrong, that may be correct explanations, but that also distract from other possible causes, like overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, poor nutrition. I trust that Richards and MSD know what they're talking about, and the mortality rate is very low, and immunity is acquired, according to both of them. Treatment for these professionals is driven by commercial concerns, because birds that have had it as chicks may fail to reach their productive potential. I don't see that's much different from giving them addictive chick feed so they over-eat in order to reach their productive potential.

PS Not all who oppose these treatments are 'eco warriors'; my worry for the environment here is the accelerated development of disease resistance and the enfeeblement of the hosts, be they chickens or people.

There are very few things, if not none, one can be one humndred percent certain about. It could possibly be that range of changes I made to how chicks were hatched in Catalonia did the trick.
It's a bit like treating an infection with antibiotics. We know they work in the lab. Tests have been done with placebos and the results suggest that the antibiotic did prevent the infection from killing the host, etc etc.
Some will and have said, "they may have just fought the infection off through natural means so how do you know the antibiotics work?"
Sure, it's possible but on a level of confidence scale I'll go with the antibiotics being effective.
I just don't have the will to go into all the details of exactly why my confidence level in using medicated feed for the circumstances I dealt with is over 90%.

I know a bit about how Amprolium works and the risk of B vitamin reduction. Not all medicated feeds are based on Amprolium as I've shown before.
There are occasions, especially in emergencies and/or giving advice to others when putting aside ones own convictions and suggesting what has proven to be an effective measure is the right thing to do.

My convictions would lead me to suggest to every chicken keeper I addressed on just about any issue would be don't keep chickens and if one must then don't keep them in a coop and run, don't keep them in hot climates and don't keep them in cold climates. Throw away the incubators, don't mix the breeds one keeps, don't keepsingle sex groups, don't feed commercial feed, don't treat them as pets...

 

[Shadrach]

I haven't had it in chicks, but I have a strain that wiped out the poults first year. I didn't think it was coccidiosis because none of the chicks were sick and no blood in poop....the only symptom was they were fluffed up like they were cold and dead the next day.
In desperation I started corid and saved some.

One doesn't always see blood in the poop, especially in chicks.
Without specialist knowledge and affordable labs one is left more often then not with best guesses.
There are not many pathogens that knock over chicks while adults thrive in the same environment; coccidiosis is one such.
The chain for me is often very simple. Chicks dying like flies while adults thrive.
Consider the possiblities. Pick the most likley drug to remedy the problem. Admister the drug. If chicks stop dying then drug is effective and emergency dealt with. Learn what one can from the experience.

What I learn't was it is far better to expose chicks to natural ground as early as possible. Better still is to have chicks with their mother on natrural ground as early as possible. There are numerous hazards in nature and it seems that mother hens are a lot better at teaching their young how to avoid them than humans are.