Questions about NPIP program

[SSHilltopHens]

Hey yall!

I plan to start selling chicks/fertile eggs in the Spring, so I decided to get NPIP certified in order to appeal to a wider market and have the ability to ship hatching eggs. Someone actually came out to test my flock today, both tests came back negative, I paid the $75 fee and I was told that I'm good to go and would get my certificate in the mail.

A little while after he left, I just so happened to stumble across a Facebook thread asking about NPIP certified breeders, and one comment stood out to me in particular. I'll paste it below:

I went to a USDA Ag trade school in my younger days and it's my opinion that these assorted agencies are not our friends, nor do they operate in the best interests of farmers or breeders. When you become NPIP, you are giving them a carte blanche license to come on your property at any time and for ANY reason, essentially waiving your 4th and 5th Amendment rights. (Pacific Legal Foundation is currently fighting a case on this very subject for licensed falconers against USFW-DOI. So far, that case is not going well as the judges rightly point out that licensed falconers have waived their rights to the agency). That waived right goes so far as the agency coming onto your property for the purpose of destroying your flock during any disease outbreak nearby. Beyond that, being NPIP strips out the personal choice of individual breeders. As a case in point, if Breeder A is NPIP and desires to buy a stock bird from Breeder B who is non-NPIP, Breeder A is barred from obtaining said stock bird as he/she may only introduce birds from other NPIP sources. I know NPIP breeders who are not working with certain rare breeds simply because the only sources for stock are in the hands of non-NPIP breeders and those breeds are ultimately suffering because of it. At day's end, I make all the decisions pertaining to my breeding operation and know far better what's best for it than some pencil pusher in an agency does. When NPIP was first established, it was a really well intended program, but at this point, it should be dismantled.

I am interested in knowing how much truth there is to some of the statements made in the above comment, particularly the following:

When you become NPIP, you are giving them a carte blanche license to come on your property at any time and for ANY reason, essentially waiving your 4th and 5th Amendment rights.

As far as I was aware, you're expected to have someone come out to your property to test your birds 6 months after your initial certification test and then once every year when you re-certify. Under what grounds would they be allowed to come onto your property outside of that?​

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That waived right goes so far as the agency coming onto your property for the purpose of destroying your flock during any disease outbreak nearby.

Is this true? Could I potentially lose my entire flock by participating in the program because of an outbreak at another farm? If so, would I be compensated for the loss of my birds or expected to start from scratch at my own expense?​

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if Breeder A is NPIP and desires to buy a stock bird from Breeder B who is non-NPIP, Breeder A is barred from obtaining said stock bird as he/she may only introduce birds from other NPIP sources.

Of all of the points raised, this seems like the most reasonable expectation, as I understand that you are expected to maintain additional biosecurity measures while participating in the program. That being said, I'm curious as to how something like this can be enforced. If I purchased chicks from a source that was not NPIP certified, I would imagine the only situation in which they would actually find out is if those birds were to test positive for PT/AI? If every bird that I bring into my flock tests clean, how would they know that they're from non-NPIP sources?​

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Reading this comment has left me feeling as if I did not do my due diligence in researching the program and that I could be causing myself more harm than good by participating. My market is in rare/uncommon chicken breeds, so only being able to purchase from NPIP certified breeders would severely limit my ability to bring in new stock. Furthermore, the possibility of losing my entire flock due to a nearby disease outbreak, as slim as it may be, is absolutely frightening to me. Could someone who is a little more knowledgeable on the program chime in and let me know if I have any reason to be concerned?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Here's your answer. A little bit of knowledge is a DANGEROUS thing. The poster shows their ignorance, not so much in what they said, as in what they don't. And as a warning, I have Libertarian leanings, which may show thru in what I'm about to post - apologies, this subject is of necessity political.

As far as I was aware, you're expected to have someone come out to your property to test your birds 6 months after your initial certification test and then once every year when you re-certify. Under what grounds would they be allowed to come onto your property outside of that?

Depending on the State, testing is either once or twice a year. In Florida, for most, its twice. MG/PT every six months, AI once a year. FL does have a once a year test program, with slightly differing restrictions. That part is right.

Here's the money question. "Under what grounds would they be allowed to come onto your property outside of that?"

Depends on the State, and the rules of whatever county/city/municipality you are in. It DOES NOT depend on whether or not your are NPIP certified or participating. Representatives of the State Agriculture department (or State Vet, or similar agency) can enter your property any time they want, assuming there is a declared or suspected animal health emergency. Local Code Enforcement can enter your property any time they want for reasons of code compliance. In many of the less poultry tolerant municipalities, having poultry on property gives the municipality license to trespass simply by possession (a few municipalities also extend that to cats, dogs, etc). And if you are in an HOA, they may have their own rules allowing trespass. For emphasis, it DOES NOT depend on whether or not your are NPIP certified or participating.

Next pp.

Is this true? Could I potentially lose my entire flock by participating in the program because of an outbreak at another farm? If so, would I be compensated for the loss of my birds or expected to start from scratch at my own expense?​

Yes its true. Highly unlikely, but True. Whether or not you are compensated depends on the laws of your State and county. Generally, the answer is NO. Importantly, the exact same thing is true for your non-NPIP neighbors. During recent outbreak of Newcastle in CA, the State used satellite imagery, Code permitting, and neighbor reports to identify ALL flocks within specificed distance of a known outbreak for quarantine and/or destruction.

Next Q.

That being said, I'm curious as to how something like this can be enforced.

The laws giving States this power were almost always written during the 1800s and are quite Draconian. How is it enforced? They destroy the flock. Not the bird, the flock. Because its too difficult to determine which is the offending bird with 100% confidence, and because the value of private livestock is insignificant when compared to the potential damage to state agricultural activity. Also, the expense of testing birds individually and maintaining a quarantine generally GREATLY exceeds the value of the flock. Cheaper to simply destroy suspected infected birds (cheaper for the State that is). Nor is there a way in tort for the typical citizen to pay damages if their violation results in the destruction of a nearby commercial flock - most of us cant't cover the bill when 10,000, 100,000, or more birds have to be destroyed, premises decontaminated, workers furloghed, and all the rest. That is, the risk is so great the penalty is deliberately punitive as a deterrent.

FInally,

My market is in rare/uncommon chicken breeds, so only being able to purchase from NPIP certified breeders would severely limit my ability to bring in new stock

If you don't purchase NPIP, you can't maintain your own NPIP status unless you maintain a closed flock (as I do). If you aren't NPIP, your sales can't legally cross State lines absent a vet inspection of each bird (very expensive, if its available at all). If you do anyways, and its discovered, the recieving State is in its rights to destroy the whole flock OF YOUR PURCHASER - and tell them to sue you for their damages. You are also, arguably, guilty of several Federal crimes - though they are unlikely to be pursued. Your home State can make your life pretty miserable, too.

Lack of NPIP does not prevent intra-State sales.

Does that level of potential government intrusion make me at all happy? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Does it have anything to do with NPIP? Not a bit.

That is all.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and that did not get nearly as political as I feared it would.

So, what does TN Say? Note that no part of the below says "only to NPIP participants", and all parts of the below can be fairly described as "broad discretion"

Tennesse Code, Title 44, Chapter 2, Part 1

The commissioner and the state veterinarian have the general supervision of all animals within or that may be in transit through the state, and they are empowered to:

(1) Establish a quarantine against any animal or animals within or entering the state;
(2) Enter any premises in which animals are likely kept for the purpose of examining, inspecting or testing for the purpose of disease control;
(3) Prohibit or regulate the importation of animals into this state whenever it is necessary to protect the health of animals in Tennessee;
(4) Order tests or vaccinations of animals within the state or imported into the state for the purpose of protecting the health of animals in Tennessee;
(5) Order the destruction and sanitary disposition of any animal, whenever, in the opinion of the state veterinarian, the interests of the state are best served by the destruction of that animal. This destruction may be ordered only for control of any animal disease for which the state has a control program, or for any animal disease not known to exist in the United States;
(6) Order the sanitary disposition of any dead animal. The owner of such animal shall be liable for its disposition;
(7) Stop and inspect or examine vehicles likely to be hauling animals for the purposes of disease control and determining compliance with this chapter;
(8) Order the cleaning and disinfection of any premises, vehicle or equipment for the purpose of animal disease control;
(9) Promulgate in accordance with the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, compiled in title 4, chapter 5, all rules and regulations necessary to carry out this chapter;
(10) Impose in accordance with the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, compiled in title 4, chapter 5, civil penalties of up to one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each violation of this chapter or the rules and regulations promulgated under this chapter;
(11) Cooperate with the government of the United States and may designate employees of USDA as agents of the department in carrying out the purposes of this chapter;
(12) Call upon other law enforcement agencies for assistance when the public safety and welfare is threatened; and
(13) File suit in a court of competent jurisdiction for the purpose of enjoining the further violation of this chapter.
T.C.A. § 44-2-102

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for such a thorough clarification! I figured there must be some truth scattered throughout that comment but it didn't quite make sense to me how the NPIP program could be so widespread if there were so many blatant drawbacks to becoming certified.

There is one last thing that wasn't entirely clear to me - does the NPIP requirement for outside breeders extend to purchasing hatching eggs, or does it only apply when obtaining live fowl?

First, I should qualify that I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't intended to be legal advice. I've spent years in the legal field, it influences how I sound, and I'm familiar with a number of broad legal concepts.

Having said that, if you read here, you will see that the NPIP program includes not just birds but also hatching eggs. See also. (I can link the federal register as well, but its BORING and not well orgainzed). I conclude, therefore, that obtaining hatching eggs from non-NPIP sources would also be violation of your NPIP agreement. Given a few moment's thought, that makes sense as well (unlike many Gov't mandates) because Salmonella Pullorum can be vertically transmitted (that is, transmitted from Mother to egg), and eliminating Pullorum and Typhoid from the flocks is the goal of the program.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So, why am I NPIP certified, even though I maintain a closed flock, don't sell my birds, and have no plans to sell my birds in the near term?

because its free (to me - FL subsidizes it, unlike many States), it tells me that my flock is free of certain devastating diseases on the date of testing (so I don't continue my culling project in hopes of producing a useful bird I can't later in good conscious sell because its a known carrier of - or has known exposure to - some terrible disease in poultry), and because twice a year, I get to talk with my local Ag guy about what he's seeing in the surrounding counties, and based on that, make decisions about my own biosecurity practices.

What do I give up? Twice a year I get a call asking if I can make my flock available for testing at some day in the coming week, plus about two hours of my time to help with testing. If I say no? They just don't recertify. The Department is too busy to do a spot inspection on someone who chooses to discontinue participation in the absence of a known or suspected outbreak. Your local gov't agents may be different, but every place I've ever lived, if the agent doesn't have to drive across multiple counties to come see you, he (or she) isn't going to go out of his way to make your life difficult when you tell them you don't want to participate anymore.

and when I do finally choose to sell? I'll be able to honestly say I've been continuously NPIP certified since September 2021 , and my property has been registered with the State Dept of Ag since roughly the same date. If people then assume I've been in business for a while? That has value to me as well.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I figured there must be some truth scattered throughout that comment but it didn't quite make sense to me how the NPIP program could be so widespread if there were so many blatant drawbacks to becoming certified.

Love this, btw. It's a great way to think about offered facts whose implications aren't matched broadly by behaviors. Wish more used such challenges to test their thinking on a subject.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Some people are dedicated advocates and should never be trusted no matter how experienced or educated they try to sound. NPIP will kill your flock if you take sales away from any of any of their mapped regions.

That's quite the slur to throw in my direction. How about some evidence for the claims you are posting re: NPIP on various threads. Not proof, mind you, simply evidence which sugggests your claims are more likely than not? I'll lower the bar for you.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You don't want proof, huh? Just evidence? Ok. These are your words.

“They destroy the flock. Not the bird, the flock. Because its too difficult to determine which is the offending bird with 100% confidence, and because the value of private livestock is insignificant when compared to the potential damage to state agricultural activity.”

Here’s a question you replied to.

“Is this true? Could I potentially lose my entire flock by participating in the program because of an outbreak at another farm?”

Your answer: Yes its true.

Are your own words evidence enough? Or do you have 7 more paragraphs of distraction that will sway a lay towards positive thoughts of NPIP?

You said the value of private livestock is insignificant to the potential damage to state agricultural activity. Read it again. ...PRIVATE LIVESTOCK IS INSIGNIFICANT TO STATE AGRICULTURAL ACTIVITY. Just say it, State Control.

All of which is true, WHETHER YOUR FLOCK IS NPIP OR NOT.

I understand your objection to the State doing what they want on your property with your livestock - but that legal ship sailed two centuries ago (as to the first part) and a century ago (as to the second). Not being NPIP won't prevent the State from doing any of the parade of horribles listed above.

Neither is there a scintilla of evidence that the State is arbitrarily culling NPIP-participating flocks because they are impacting sales of the big producers.

Address the question.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

All the same things can happen if you don't register your flock.

 

[sdm111]

I have and will sell and will never be npip. I don't know about what you tagged except that your whole flock will be euthanized is there's a problem and it only good for a year. Also what about buying from a npip? As in the test was only good when it was conducted, what about every day thereafter? Someone could in theory be fine one day get a pass and literally the next day come down with something. I think ita all a crock.