Maintenance dose of Calcium for shell-less egg layer?

[Sueby]

Hi all. I have a pullet that lays shell-less eggs (& struggles doing it). At the recommendation of @aart I tried the calcium citrate with vitamin D & it worked great, after a couple days she started laying normal hard shelled eggs daily & no more struggling. But as soon as I stop dosing her within a few days she goes back to shell-less eggs & struggling. I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried like a maintenance dose for these chickens that continue to have calcium issues. I don't have any idea how much is too much calcium & if I will do more damage to her. Do laying hens just excrete extra calcium on the shell? Could I dose her a half a pill every 3 days or something maybe? Anyone do something like this? I googled & couldn't find any info on excess calcium in layers, only in birds before laying has started.

I will edit & link my first thread on her for reference, but in the mean time she has only been laying for about a month. She is the only one with issues & is not sick in any other way. They are on an all flock feed for now, I am going to switch to layer pellets as soon as I can grab a bag from the feed store. She has free choice oyster shell & I feel back all of their shells (sprinkled on the ground). I don't generally feed treats. I'm hoping layer feed helps & that she grows out of it, but I'm thinking she's probably just defective.

Appreciate your thoughts?

 

[casportpony]

How much were you giving?

"Hens need to consume around 4 grams of calcium each day in order to get the 2 grams of calcium needed to make one egg shell – not all the calcium goes to making eggshells. As stated previously, the nutrient – along with vitamin D3 – must come from the hen's feed."
https://www.purinamills.com/chicken-feed/education/detail/what-to-feed-laying-hens-for-strong-eggshells#:~:text=Hens need to consume around,come from the hen's feed.

 

[Sueby]

I was giving her a half a calcium citrate magnesuim vit d a day for I think 3/4 days - I believe they are 500mg of calcium. Thank you for the link, off to read it!

 

[Sueby]

So I found another link that corresponds with the one you posted for me @casportpony about how much they need. It is an amazing amount of calcium! I'm not so worried about over dosing her now. Hopefully I can find a happy balance getting her some extra calcium like once a week or something (thank you @rosemarythyme for the ideas & advice).

Here's the link I found & an excerpt from it in case anyone looks back on this: https://www.feedstrategy.com/poultry-nutrition/understanding-daily-calcium-cycle-in-layer-hens/

'Let us examine the daily balance of calcium intake and output in a layer hen. She is about 35 weeks of age, at the peak of her egg production cycle. Under most commercial situations, she is likely to consume about 100 grams of a feed containing 4 percent total calcium (and no more than 0.4 percent total phosphorus). Thus, her daily intake of calcium is about 4,000 mg. The majority of this feed is consumed during the first hours after daybreak, whereas a small amount might be available during the rest of the day, depending on appetite and feed management practices.

From the 4,000 mg of calcium ingested, the hen will lose (in feces) about 500 mg as indigestible. This is 12.5 percent of total calcium intake, which means there is considerable room for improving calcium digestibility. Another 400 mg of calcium will be excreted through urine, whereas 100 mg of calcium will be returned to the bones' reserves, leaving about 3,000 mg for the egg. Of these, 2,000 mg will go to the eggshell and the remaining to yolk and albumen formation.'

 

[rosemarythyme]

So I found another link that corresponds with the one you posted for me @casportpony about how much they need. It is an amazing amount of calcium! I'm not so worried about over dosing her now. Hopefully I can find a happy balance getting her some extra calcium like once a week or something (thank you @rosemarythyme for the ideas & advice).

Let me post my comments here too, just so I can also use this as future reference for anyone with similar issues:

Since you fed the calcium and that did help with shell formation, I don't think she's really defective (maybe has higher calcium need than others, or does not convert it well). Layer feed should help in this case, but she may still need additional supplements.

I generally feed a mixed diet of 50% fermented grower and 50% layer pellets, however currently I have chicks so the birds are getting 50% fermented starter and 50% all flock crumble, and I anticipate I'll need to supplement more calcium in upcoming weeks since there's no longer layer pellets to help.

Now I don't have actual numbers as to how much precisely to give a bird to help. I do my doses by trial and error. I saw casportpony responded with a link that appears to have hard numbers which would be great to refer to.

At this point my one bird that benefits from a calcium boost gets it once a week, and that seems to be enough to maintain satisfactory eggshell strength. I don't use a pill or Tums, I simply take some of the powdery oyster shell in the bottom of the dispenser and sprinkle some onto 1 Tbsp of fermented or wet feed in a small bowl - it looks like it has been peppered with oyster shell. I isolate the bird, give her her special "breakfast" which she eats in about a minute, then she's free to go.

Twice a week is a good start. I started at 3x a week to sort of jump start the whole thing, then decreased from there. If this works, you should see results in a week or two - if little/no improvement, then I would have to assume that calcium alone may not be the only reason this bird is having trouble forming hard shells.

If your bird will accept larger flake oyster shell btw, no reason to stick strictly to the powder (since the article noted that larger flakes sit longer and thus provide more calcium for absorption) but my stubborn little hen will eat around larger flakes, hence my using oyster shell powder.

I also find this easier than trying to dose with a pill for the reason you noted, that sooner or later the hen will just start running from you when you get that look in your eye! With a "private breakfast" I'm feeding the regular food they're used to, and the hen can even eat without competition, so relatively little fuss.

 

[checkingon]

I'm desperate and searching for help too. My hen is about 4-5 years of age. Two weeks ago, she had trouble laying her egg. After soaking and giving her calcium (PetCal) provided by the vet (not an avian vet), she extracted a huge shell-less egg. A couple of days after that, she was able to provide us with shelled eggs only to start again on shell-less eggs for days after that. I kept her on one table of Pet Cal but it does not provide me with gram dosage. There's none written on the bottle as it is for dogs and cat and go by weight. Can someone post me with a picture of the Citrate? Will it help my baby? How many grams should I give her or is it mg? I'm very confused reading this as I understand that 4 grams of calcium per day is adequate. First it was grams, then mg and I'm getting confused. Yeah, I'm not very good in math.

My hen too is not a normal hen. She was adopted as she wondered onto my property. She doesn't like any type of layer feed and refuses pellets or crumbles. After spending a lot of money trying different brands, I gave up and instead just give her what she likes (which amounts to not much calcium or other nutritional benefits). I give her fruits and veges which she loves and supply her with supplements but it's not enough. I give her calcium tablets by mouth. I started her on these tablets last year when she was egg-bound. Gave her one tablet everyday and she was really good. Slowly I cut it back to 1/4 tablet every two days and more recent it was 1/4 every 3 days - now this. Along with her shell-less eggs, she's currently undergoing a slight molt (dropping a feather or two, a day here and there) and bumble foot.

Is this something that older hens go through? Please help.

 

[Sueby]

Just an update in case anyone reads & for @rosemarythyme:

She was doing so well for a couple months, then she didn't lay one day (not completely abnormal, but they usually lay every day), the next day was 2 shell-less eggs so I gave her calcium. The next morning she laid a very bloody, yet fully formed egg, walked out of the coop & collapsed under the ramp & died. All of her insides on the outside.

I feel awful, like I didn't do enough for her or maybe I should have culled her in the beginning but, like I said, she was perfect for a couple of months so I had no way of knowing. She was such a sweet girl too. I'm done with the production reds, too many reproductive issues for me.

 

[rosemarythyme]

Just an update in case anyone reads & for @rosemarythyme:

She was doing so well for a couple months, then she didn't lay one day (not completely abnormal, but they usually lay every day), the next day was 2 shell-less eggs so I gave her calcium. The next morning she laid a very bloody, yet fully formed egg, walked out of the coop & collapsed under the ramp & died. All of her insides on the outside.

I feel awful, like I didn't do enough for her or maybe I should have culled her in the beginning but, like I said, she was perfect for a couple of months so I had no way of knowing. She was such a sweet girl too. I'm done with the production reds, too many reproductive issues for me.

So sorry to hear about this! You did your best for her and I don't think there's anything you could've done to "fix" her problem (if it wasn't her wonky reproductive system, then all the calcium she required could've caused issues in the long run). Admittedly this is why I decided against getting any production birds... just too many stories of birds dying fairly young due to reproductive system issues.

 

[checkingon]

I'm so very sorry. My girl have been having problems too and I know I'm doing the best I can but I question myself too. You really cared for her and did your absolute best.

 

[Sueby]

@checkingon I hope your hen is ok.