High coop entrance that raccoons and rodents can't climb

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I would really, really suggest you get some chickens and a large muscovy drake before theorizing about the stupidity of usual arrangements

Look, even if chickens flap up to a raised doorway, they need a landing pad. Unless the chicken is small and the popdoor is wide the popdoor sill itself is a pretty perilous place for them to land. They can more or less do it if they have to but it ain't pretty and doesn't work well. This is not theory, this is observation.

Second, training birds to spend their nights where you want them to is a WHOLE lot easier if the place is APPEALING to them. If you browse this section you will find a number of past threads in which people were *unable* to convince their chickens to go indoors for the night until they reconfigured some aspects of their coops.

Finally, yer adult muscovy is not exactly the most agile critter to begin with.

Are ramps vitally necessary? Not generally. Are they significantly USEFUL? Generally yes.

Dropping a ramp to the door DOES NOT NECESSARILY KEEP PREDATORS OUT, though, so I am not sure what you would achieve by that part of your suggestion.

How about my basic design but with a door on the entrance that I use religiously for a few months, and most of the time for a year or so, to see what happens that way? It would open by sliding down inside the wall and have a latch lock to hold it.

Hey, if you want to build this whole thing and sink a lot of time and energy and material into it, do it any way you please... note that a few months proves NOTHING about its riskiness to predators (unless of course your birds get et in that timeframe, but even with high predation risk they very well might not).

All we're saying is, it is a lot of extra work to go to, without actually producing any much likelihood of improved security. Especially when improved security is easily enough come by through conventional methods.

Is it possible that they would want to fly up instead of out into the open?

The bottom line is that if the birds are in an area where they are exposed to predators, they are likely to get et by any predator that attacks them.

If some would have the sense to do this and others would not, I'd want to breed the smart ones.

You are assuming quite a lot about genetic contribution towards instantaneous reaction. I wish you luck but doubt your premise is correct.

I don't see how anyone could know that birds wouldn't go into some type of high enclosure, unless they know of someone who has tried this before.

People who have some experience with a) poultry behavior and b) predator behavior are giving you their best opinions on the LIKELY results of your setup. It is your choice whether or not to believe your thought-experiments and guesses are likelier to be correct than the estimation of those with actual real-world experience with the critters.

You mean they are likely to pile up and smoother each other? This can't kill them all.

Well jeez, if you are just trying to usually have "some" survivor(s) of an attack, why are you going to all this trouble?

Honestly, I don't see the point in spending as much to make an untrustworthy enclosure as it'd take to make a reasonably trustworthy one, ESPECIALLY if your feeling is "oh well they're just poultry and I can easily enough get some new ones".

If you feel your cleverness and your knowledge of theoretical animal behavior is really that reliable and truly want to build this thing, by all means do so.

Just, don't say we didn't tell ya so, when it turns out to have been kind of a waste of time and money and material.

Good luck, bon voyage,

Pat​

 

[Bossroo]

Quote:
I would really, really suggest you get some chickens and a large muscovy drake before theorizing about the stupidity of usual arrangements

Look, even if chickens flap up to a raised doorway, they need a landing pad. Unless the chicken is small and the popdoor is wide the popdoor sill itself is a pretty perilous place for them to land. They can more or less do it if they have to but it ain't pretty and doesn't work well. This is not theory, this is observation.

Second, training birds to spend their nights where you want them to is a WHOLE lot easier if the place is APPEALING to them. If you browse this section you will find a number of past threads in which people were *unable* to convince their chickens to go indoors for the night until they reconfigured some aspects of their coops.

Finally, yer adult muscovy is not exactly the most agile critter to begin with.

Are ramps vitally necessary? Not generally. Are they significantly USEFUL? Generally yes.

Dropping a ramp to the door DOES NOT NECESSARILY KEEP PREDATORS OUT, though, so I am not sure what you would achieve by that part of your suggestion.

How about my basic design but with a door on the entrance that I use religiously for a few months, and most of the time for a year or so, to see what happens that way? It would open by sliding down inside the wall and have a latch lock to hold it.

Hey, if you want to build this whole thing and sink a lot of time and energy and material into it, do it any way you please... note that a few months proves NOTHING about its riskiness to predators (unless of course your birds get et in that timeframe, but even with high predation risk they very well might not).

All we're saying is, it is a lot of extra work to go to, without actually producing any much likelihood of improved security. Especially when improved security is easily enough come by through conventional methods.

Is it possible that they would want to fly up instead of out into the open?

The bottom line is that if the birds are in an area where they are exposed to predators, they are likely to get et by any predator that attacks them.

If some would have the sense to do this and others would not, I'd want to breed the smart ones.

You are assuming quite a lot about genetic contribution towards instantaneous reaction. I wish you luck but doubt your premise is correct.

I don't see how anyone could know that birds wouldn't go into some type of high enclosure, unless they know of someone who has tried this before.

People who have some experience with a) poultry behavior and b) predator behavior are giving you their best opinions on the LIKELY results of your setup. It is your choice whether or not to believe your thought-experiments and guesses are likelier to be correct than the estimation of those with actual real-world experience with the critters.

You mean they are likely to pile up and smoother each other? This can't kill them all.

Well jeez, if you are just trying to usually have "some" survivor(s) of an attack, why are you going to all this trouble?

Honestly, I don't see the point in spending as much to make an untrustworthy enclosure as it'd take to make a reasonably trustworthy one, ESPECIALLY if your feeling is "oh well they're just poultry and I can easily enough get some new ones".

If you feel your cleverness and your knowledge of theoretical animal behavior is really that reliable and truly want to build this thing, by all means do so.

Just, don't say we didn't tell ya so, when it turns out to have been kind of a waste of time and money and material.

Good luck, bon voyage,

Pat​

DITTO !!!​

 

[Lumenos]

Quote:
[Update: I wrote a comparison of a climb-prevention barrier with automatic coop doors, or electric fences.]

Are there any conventional methods for free-range or a portable enclosure that give access to the ground and would protect from animals who could dig under a wire fence? This could be dogs, coyotes, or raccoons (that are out during the day). There is a high probability that *all* the broody chickens or muscovies would be killed and that means I have to start over from chickens or very expensive muscovy ducklings (unless I find a local source). If they have a high place to fly, that predators can't climb or jump to, it seems to me they have a much better chance of survival.

How about something that prevents these creatures from ever getting in the coop (when the door is open): rats, mice, snakes, weasels, foxes? [Update: Guard dogs/cats might keep these creatures away, but they are high-maintenance.]

Automatic coop doors are expensive and/or can fail if there is a power failure unless they have a battery backup which adds to costs and can fail as well. The owner may not notice that a timer is a few hours late. Half of them look like they don't even have latches to hold them closed. A bird could get stuck outside the door, or in it.
Quote:
What keeps out SMALLER canines, or large canines more agile than you are anticipating?

I'm not sure what to anticipate. I know that smaller canines can't jump as high as larger ones. How about 6 feet off the ground?

I'm trying to find out which (if any) poultry are more agile than a higher-jumping canine. Maybe the trick is rather to go higher than anything but a bird can go.

Quote:
I'm not really presuming my "plans" are good ideas and everybody else is stupid. I'm asking questions and modifying the plans according to what I learn. When I question the advice of people more experienced than I, it is not because I believe I know more, it is because I would like to know more.

I have got chickens. Even if I can acquire a single large muscovy in this area, I might not want that type anyway. They may require more store bought food. Otherwise I might feed them from large amounts of fresh green wastes I get from neighbors. I may also day-range and the offspring of a heavy breed may not be as able to fly away from predators. I may just stick with brown leghorns for eggs, if my research indicates that muscovies would not be suitable to confinement or day-ranging in a suburban back yard with lots of wild predators.

Quote:
Okay so I modified the plan so that the landing pad is 30" wide and the doorway is further back inside the coop. What makes a good landing pad? If all I have to go on are my own observations of chickens, I would say a board at a 30 degree angle with a bunch of upside-down mousepads on it. The foam rubber would give them traction and cushion. Humm maybe the landing pad should be the back of the door, so that when it is closed predators can't use it.

Quote:
Here is one such thread you were helping with. https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=30050 What would seem intuitive to me is if you want an animal to go somewhere at a certain time you simply withhold food then put it in that location at that time. No one suggested that; maybe it sounds cruel, but don't you think it would work? If they are satisfied with their foraged food, in my case, I could put the run over barren land until they get the idea.

 

[Lumenos]

Upon closer inspection of my sheet metal scraps, they have some tough plastic-like coating that is flaking off on some of the pieces. Since the sheet metal is lighter than wood, I've decided to use the sheet metal I have for the walls of the coop, with an aluminum roof, so there is a much greater chance of of it being lightweight enough to be portable. I'm NOT using the sheet metal as a climb-prevention barrier. I also changed the design so that I can just add a entryway or landing pad later, if I wanna do that.

Even if it only works with leghorns and it only prevents rodents, I still think it could be worth the experiment. Or if it only can provide the possibility that some birds would be able to escape a daytime attack (by a large dog, for example), and still allow the run to be portable (no dig-prevention flaps) I think it would be worth trying.

But if I get muscovies I will probably want the heavier breeds so they would probably need a ramp and a coop entrance large enough for a dog.

(Updated to add the parts in bold and reword the parts in italics. Sorry if that wasn't clear before.)

 

[patandchickens]

Huh, I thought I replied to this before but maybe I inadvertantly closed the window instead of hitting 'submit'. I did want to comment on:

Quote:
It only works if the animal is basically "fine" about going there, and can easily get there.

I'm just sayin'. Theory is nice, but the world don't always work that way

Good luck,

Pat

 

[Lumenos]

Quote:
It only works if the animal is basically "fine" about going there, and can easily get there.

I'm just sayin'. Theory is nice, but the world don't always work that way

Good luck,

Pat

We are getting off topic here but no one else is posting anyway. I think the word you mean is speculation, not theory. Some theories are quite well established such as gravity or the Theory of Relativity. Anytime we make generalizations, instead of speaking about specific events we have observed, we are getting into something theoretical (and usually speculative). In general, I find specific observations to be most valuable, such as, "Every time I have seen a coon near the hen house the hens are trying to get out of the window on the other side of the coop". Theories of experienced people are also valuable, but they often leave out exact figures or evidence, that might help us understand the "why's" and "hows", such as: "How high would they fly on a daily basis?" "What percentage of chickens could be scared out of the coop?" "What breed are they?" "Are they used to being disturbed in the middle of the night?" "Are they used to seeing raccoons around them?" "Were they trained to fly?" Experts often disagree and make mistakes with things this complex, so seeing the evidence often helps us to know if their theory is really supported by the observations.

I do a lot of speculating and questioning. I believe I have a much better design now than if I had not asked questions and thought about it. I try to use choice-optimization strategies to leave options open in the future. I would think discussing "theory" would be more interesting to most people rather than the specifics of the materials that only I have, but I mentioned those as they relate to questions like: Is a narrow entryway optimal? Can a raccoon grab a countersunk screw in sheet metal? (Although they probably can, I doubt they could stand on it without back or side support.)

The big decision for me, was whether or not to use the sheet metal I have as a climb-prevention barrier or as a lightweight wall for a portable coop. Speculating and asking "experts", helped me figure out. Thanks for your opinion on that.

That said, I probably should have rephrased the question, "Why do they always have these ramps?" They don't always have ramps and I basically knew why they do. But your comment about the landing pad, did answer what I was wanting to know. One reason they need ramps is because coop doors are usually too small to land in. With my new design I could have a landing pad that is any height and as wide as the coop (7' 8"). I would probably use a different structure however, because this one would probably no longer be portable if I raised it that high. I've been considering a "coop"/roost on the roof surrounded with a climb prevention barrier. This might be an option for (free range) leghorns (especially if they won't eat too much of the vegetable garden).

As my chickens are getting larger I am doubtful most meat birds could/would out jump/fly a raccoon's hop/reach or a canine's jump. It still seems possible with some eggers. Angel, my brown leghorn, loves to jump and fly. She can jump/fly 30 inches at about a 60 degree angle, at only a few weeks old. That is almost 4 times her height going nearly vertical.

I still think this might be a way to keep rodents out of a coop, even for meat birds. Someone in this forum claims that brown rats can jump 6 feet; Wikianswers says 3 feet.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I know what a theory is; I was a research biologist for years before 'retiring' to momhood and chickenkeeping

I said, and meant, "theory" because you seem to be relying on textbook-style animal behavior theory.

You prefer to call it speculation, or hypothesis, or "choice optimization strategies", or anything else that floats your boat, fine, it does NOT change one iota the point I'm trying to make.

Which is that IN REAL LIFE, empirically, when ya actually DO IT, training with food does not typically work well if the animal is highly averse to <doing whatever>, or tends not to make a thoughtful decision about the act under pressure, or finds it physically quite difficult to ever do in the first place. And IME this seems to be even more true of chickens than it is of many other animals.

In general, I find specific observations to be most valuable, such as, "Every time I have seen a coon near the hen house the hens are trying to get out of the window on the other side of the coop". Theories of experienced people are also valuable, but they often leave out exact figures or evidence, that might help us understand the "why's" and "hows"

Surely you do not expect a written brain-dump of every event and instance of each person's entire experience with poultry and predators. In addition to being difficult for you to absorb, it would be ridiculous to expect anyone to type in page after page of "I saw this, I saw that, this happened, this other thing happened."

I am sorry if you find generalizations and experienced advice less than useful; some people just have to reinvent the wheel themselves, I guess.

Enjoy,

Pat​

 

[jomercer]

What's most disturbing to me about this thread is Lumenos' willingness to subject his/her birds to overly stressful if not downright dangerous/deadly living conditions.

Can you say "cruel?"

These experiments have already been done over several thousand years' worth of poultry husbandry, and people have devised some pretty good ways to avoid problems. That's why chicken coops, runs, and enclosures look much the same the world over.

Maybe wild jungle fowl could be athletic, agile, and quick-witted enough to take the fullest advantage of these contrivances, but *domesticated* animals have been bred to reduce their wild behaviors and instincts to make them more productive and easier for we humans to handle.

It's therefore our duty to keep domesticated animals in the safest and most humane conditions possible.

I frankly don't care if Lumenos wastes time, money, and effort in creating these structures. In fact, that might be good because then there would be less money to buy more hapless experimental subjects.

But don't punish the birds by exposing them to unnecessary risk. That's not how the science, let alone the art, of animal husbandry, advances.

 

[MiniBeesKnees]

ALL of that aside...I always wonder why anyone is willing to invest two weeks worth of work, and a thousand dollars into materials to protect a two dollar chicken.

 

[patandchickens]

Er, just for the record, I do not personally think it is "cruel" to do less than 1000% to protect animals, as long as *reasonable* protection is provided and good living conditions otherwise; and I can certainly understand the intellectual challenge of designing a solution to a problem.

Pat