Ayam Cemani Test Breeding

[Blue Eager]

According to the Ayam Cemani Breeders Association “Test breeding” is the only sure way to tell if your breeders stock have two copies of “Fm”? If I understand this method correctly this is achieved by breeding all fibro males with none fibro females, and all fibro females with none fibro males. In other words breeding fibro males and fibro females with for example; Blue Ameraucanas. If the offspring are all black then your birds do have both copies of Fm. Below is a chart that illustrates the different results of this test.

I have been breeding these birds going on 5 years now and the offspring have been the best I have had thus far with very few culls. I now have approximately 20 grow-outs with excellent qualities I am considering using for this test which by no means appears easily accomplished. The males would be relatively simple although it is the females that would be difficult to keep track of. My guess is the only way would be separating each none fibro male with each fibro female until at least 10 eggs are gathered for incubation, unless I can develop some sort of method to tag or identify characteristics of each individual females eggs.

So my question is; has anyone here tried this Test Breeding method, how did you accomplish it, and what did you think of this method?

 

[casportpony]

@Pyxis, can you help here?

 

[Blue Eager]

Here is the link to the above test; https://ayamcemani.us/how-to-breed-your-ayam-cemani/

 

[Blue Eager]

I had high hopes given there appeared to be dedicated AC breeders on this site that someone would chime in although this does not seem to be the case. Having said that I discussed the possibilities of the viability of this test with my son whom has a Masters in Chemistry which stated it would appear to make sense although there isn’t documentation on the site that developed this test as to scientific evidence mapping the dominant gene described as “Fm”. So, I have decided to take on this challenge to determine whether or not the test is viable.

I will begin by breeding my fibro roos with my non fibro Blue Ameraucana hens for the simple reason they are much easier to monitor & my Blue Ameraucana roo isn't of appropriate age to breed. He will not be ready until the spring of 2021. So I would like to pose another question if I may; how long does it take until the eggs of a hen run their course from one roo so that I am certain all of her eggs are fertilized from the next roo she is breed to?

 

[MFRcoop]

Its a very interesting topic being that I have the breed. Wish I had an answer for you but out of my range of knowledge. I hope you don't mind but I reposted a link of your question in a Ayam Cemani forum in hopes someone would answer you. It will direct them here to answer. Best of luck!

 

[Blue Eager]

Thank you MFRcoop. Much appreciated!

 

[nicalandia]

Here is the link to the above test; https://ayamcemani.us/how-to-breed-your-ayam-cemani/

This Test is riddle with Flaws, not to mention that it lacks any basic genetic knowledge or even attempts to educate it's users on the fundamentals of the black skin on Fibromelanotic birds


Edit... stay put for a detailed genetic explanation on the matter...

 

[nicalandia]

Both the Chinese Silkie and Ayam Cemani have been bred for thousands of years for their black skin/meat/face, recent genetic studies have confirm that they share the same mutation and give it a date of around 9000 years ago(well before the chicken domestication event)


Reference: The origin and evolution of fibromelanosis in domesticated chickens: Genomic comparison of Indonesian Cemani and Chinese Silkie breeds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147


Fibromelanotic is an autosomal incomplete dominant mutation of the fm allele(Fm is the mutation and fm+ is the recessive wildtype counterpart), but here is the catch, for Fibromelanotic to be expressed at all it needs the help of the recessive sex linked dermal enhancer id+, This means that if you don't know this and you are performing a test cross of your Cemani stock with the wrong type of chicken your results will be inaccurate and may lead to the culling of a perfectly fine line.

Here is an example:

Ayam Cemani hen genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/- : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: Black Skin

Rhode Island Red rooster genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/Id : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin


The result of such cross will yield F1s with White Skin, red combs and white undersole with dark shanks(Extended black allows for epidermal melanin to express)

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
Id/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White skin

So going by this cross you would be baffled to see that 100% of the chicks that hatched have white clear skin?

Now do the reciprocal cross(Cemani Roo over RIR hen) and you will get Sex links(pullets will hatch with black skin and cockerels will hatch with white clear skin)


Ayam Cemani Rooster genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/id+ : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: White Skin

Rhode Island Red hen genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/- : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
id+/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White Skin for males and Black Skin for females.

So even if you had pure Ayam Cemani(homozygous for the Fibromelanotic mutation) if you test it with the wrong type of hens or roosters your result will be inaccurate and I just believe that is unacceptable for someone not to mention that when writing about that on that page.

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

 

[Blue Eager]

Both the Chinese Silkie and Ayam Cemani have been bred for thousands of years for their black skin/meat/face, recent genetic studies have confirm that they share the same mutation and give it a date of around 9000 years ago(well before the chicken domestication event)


Reference: The origin and evolution of fibromelanosis in domesticated chickens: Genomic comparison of Indonesian Cemani and Chinese Silkie breeds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147


Fibromelanotic is an autosomal incomplete dominant mutation of the fm allele(Fm is the mutation and fm+ is the recessive wildtype counterpart), but here is the catch, for Fibromelanotic to be expressed at all it needs the help of the recessive sex linked dermal enhancer id+, This means that if you don't know this and you are performing a test cross of your Cemani stock with the wrong type of chicken your results will be inaccurate and may lead to the culling of a perfectly fine line.

Here is an example:

Ayam Cemani hen genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/- : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: Black Skin

Rhode Island Red rooster genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/Id : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin


The result of such cross will yield F1s with White Skin, red combs and white undersole with dark shanks(Extended black allows for epidermal melanin to express)

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
Id/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White skin

So going by this cross you would be baffled to see that 100% of the chicks that hatched have white clear skin?

Now do the reciprocal cross(Cemani Roo over RIR hen) and you will get Sex links(pullets will hatch with black skin and cockerels will hatch with white clear skin)


Ayam Cemani Rooster genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/id+ : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: White Skin

Rhode Island Red hen genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/- : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
id+/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White Skin for males and Black Skin for females.

So even if you had pure Ayam Cemani(homozygous for the Fibromelanotic mutation) if you test it with the wrong type of hens or roosters your result will be inaccurate and I just believe that is unacceptable for someone not to mention that when writing about that on that page.

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

My suspicions are correct. When I pressured the AC site to disclose scientific evidence to support they're claim they simply deleted my posts on two different occasions. You will also notice one or two other questions in search of basically the same information with zero response.

You also touched on my worst fear which was culling perfectly good Cemanis based on bogus claims.

So, which breeds would you consider likely candidates to attempt a suitable cross breed test?

BTW; thank you so much for clarifying this seemingly bullet proof test.

 

[nicalandia]

My suspicions are correct. When I pressured the AC site to disclose scientific evidence to support they're claim they simply deleted my posts on two different occasions. You will also notice one or two other questions in search of basically the same information with zero response.

You also touched on my worst fear which was culling perfectly good Cemanis based on bogus claims.

So, which breeds would you consider likely candidates to attempt a suitable cross breed test?

BTW; thank you so much for clarifying this seemingly bullet proof test.

Ameraucanas would be my go to breed choice for out crossing for testing purpose, first they have the sex linked dermal enhancer gene(id+), White skin gene(W+/W+) and lay blue eggs so they will be cool looking like Rapanui or old chilean stock of Mapuche