Why did my chicks die in the shell?

[egg-inator]

Hi. I'm new to BYC and incubation. I've got a 36-egg incubator that turns the eggs every 2 hrs. For my test batch, I put in 3 budgie eggs and 2 bantam eggs. (The budgie eggs were neglected. I usually just give them to other hens to foster, but thought I'd try incubating them.) I had the temp. at 37.5 °C and RH at around 48-50% and then 70% at lockdown. All the eggs developed pretty well. I candled and weighed them once a day. The air cells looked well-developed. The weight loss was 13-14% at lockdown. Hatchday was almost 2 weeks ago. Budg1 hatched and is healthy, but Budg2 zipped about 90% of the way and then died in the shell. I think Budg3 drowned. As for the bantam eggs, Ban1 hatched on time and is also healthy, although I had to assist 'cuz he got shrink wrapped after pipping. Can that happen even if the bator was never opened? When I helped Ban1, I candled Ban2 and suspected it had already died but left it in there just in case. Two days later it still didn't hatch so I did an eggtopsy. Its head was pointed toward the narrow end of the egg. The yolk was unabsorbed. Can anyone tell me what might've gone wrong with Budg2, Budg3 and Ban2? I live in the tropics if that info is of any use. I feel bad because they made it almost to the finish line. The first one was a small batch but I now have another 12 budgie eggs and 15 bantam eggs in the bator. The eggs weren't all set at the same time, though. I had ordered a smaller bator during the early parts of the first incubation and it only just arrived on hatchday. I'm gonna use that one as the lockdown bator. Any advice on what else I should do would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Chickensandhorsesforlife]

I am sorry about your chicks! @JadeFarms, @Eggcessive, @sourland, Can you help?

 

[Mellowmalt]

have you got an additional thermometer to double check the temperature in the incubator?
I know you set the incubator probe to 37.5 degrees but it might be running a bit hot.

Ps: the egg should lose a maximum of 14% by hatch day. Lock down is 3 days earlier so if an egg has lost 14% by day 18 it has lost a little too much. I mean I don't know if you are weighing or not or just estimating as you can't really estimate the differnce between 12 and 14% but weighing has helped me judge it a lot. Once you know the right conditions to aim for you use the same settings in future without having to recheck things all the time

If I had to guess I would suspect you might benefit lowering temperature to 37.3 for lockdown and keep humidity 5% higher for the first 2 weeks but you would have to double check and make that decision based on your readings.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I think you are doing a great job for a person new to incubating.
Head at small end could be normal if it died prior to day 19. Otherwise there can be several other causes. Eggs set small end up or horizontal, old breeders, vitamin deficiency (A or B12), round or very large eggs and high humidity. It probably died before day 19 since the yolk was noticeably unabsorbed.
It can also be caused by high or low temp - I don't think that's it since they hatched on time. Also improper turning but you have an auto turner.
I too rely on weight more than hygrometer for proper humidity.
There can be many causes of embryos dying after day 18. Besides incubation conditions including ventilation, among them are causes that happen prior to incubation. Those are heredity, breeder diseases, prolonged egg storage and one that most people ignore is breeder nutrition. Many feeds are adequate for egg laying and eating but inadequate for good hatchability.
Your temperature could be about 0.5C high for budgies.
Now that you have a second incubator, it will be easier to make an educated guess about temperature by using an extra thermometer and use it to compare the two incubators.
I don't know where you are located but there is an extremely accurate Bluetooth combination thermometer/hygrometer made in Switzerland so it may be available where you are. It is a Govee H5074.
https://www.amazon.com/Govee-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Bluetooth-Temperature/dp/B07R586J37

 

[egg-inator]

have you got an additional thermometer to double check the temperature in the incubator?
I know you set the incubator probe to 37.5 degrees but it might be running a bit hot.

Ps: the egg should lose a maximum of 14% by hatch day. Lock down is 3 days earlier so if an egg has lost 14% by day 18 it has lost a little too much. I mean I don't know if you are weighing or not or just estimating as you can't really estimate the differnce between 12 and 14% but weighing has helped me judge it a lot. Once you know the right conditions to aim for you use the same settings in future without having to recheck things all the time

If I had to guess I would suspect you might benefit lowering temperature to 37.3 for lockdown and keep humidity 5% higher for the first 2 weeks but you would have to double check and make that decision based on your readings.

Yes, I have a glass-tube thermometer and a digital hygrometer (which also gives the temp) in the incubator. The glass-tube thermometer agrees with the bator temp. I used the ice water method to test the accuracy and it's accurate. The digital hygrometer agrees with the incubator, but I'm gonna get extra analog ones just in case.

I weighed the eggs and wrote down the numbers. I don't remember where I put the piece of paper I wrote it down on, but the weight loss was 13 point something percent for all of them. You're probably right about the moisture loss being too high. I hesitated going above 50% 'cuz I read that the RH for budgie eggs should be about 46-52% so I aimed for the higher-medium range.

I'll try lowering the temp. at LD this time. I'll try the humidity thing, too. Thanks for the advice!

 

[egg-inator]

I think you are doing a great job for a person new to incubating.
Head at small end could be normal if it died prior to day 19. Otherwise there can be several other causes. Eggs set small end up or horizontal, old breeders, vitamin deficiency (A or B12), round or very large eggs and high humidity. It probably died before day 19 since the yolk was noticeably unabsorbed.
It can also be caused by high or low temp - I don't think that's it since they hatched on time. Also improper turning but you have an auto turner.
I too rely on weight more than hygrometer for proper humidity.
There can be many causes of embryos dying after day 18. Besides incubation conditions including ventilation, among them are causes that happen prior to incubation. Those are heredity, breeder diseases, prolonged egg storage and one that most people ignore is breeder nutrition. Many feeds are adequate for egg laying and eating but inadequate for good hatchability.
Your temperature could be about 0.5C high for budgies.
Now that you have a second incubator, it will be easier to make an educated guess about temperature by using an extra thermometer and use it to compare the two incubators.
I don't know where you are located but there is a extremely accurate Bluetooth combination thermometer/hygrometer made in Switzerland so it may be available where you are. It is a Govee H5074.
https://www.amazon.com/Govee-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Bluetooth-Temperature/dp/B07R586J37

Thanks! The eggs were set on their side and at LD the side where the air cell dips is on top. The bantam rooster and hens are about 2 yo and the budgies' ages range between 1-3 yrs. They are healthy and well-fed. Budgies get a proper diet and I give them boosters when laying and raising chicks. I'll do more research on chicken feed, though.

I was worried about the temp. for budgies. Different sites give different info. I'll try lowering it.

I'm in Thailand. I don't think I can get the thermometer/hygrometer you recommended. It doesn't look like it's locally available and the import taxes aren't really feasible for me. Thanks for the advice, though.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

While it doesn't mention budgies specifically, it looks like tropical birds incubation temps are 37.0 C or less.
https://www.beautyofbirds.com/eggincubationtemperature.html

govee in Thailand
https://www.ubuy.co.th/en/brand/govee

 

[egg-inator]

The site is very interesting and informative. The Thai and some English sites I found gave higher temps for small parrots at 37.3 - 37.5 C. This site kinda makes more sense. I only lowered the temp to 37.3 C last night. Didn't want to shock them by lowering it too much at a time. This morning all the embryos, budgies and bantams, looked just as active as before, except one budgie that looks like an early quitter. I plan on getting another incubator later to separate chicken eggs from smaller bird eggs, but for now I'll just have to use the one I have.

As for the Govee hygrometer, while I really want a very accurate hygrometer, if I ordered it from overseas (other than from other countries around this region), I'd end up having to pay customs duty (which will most likely be as much as or more than the price of the hygrometer, depending on where it's from), not to mention the gas cost to get to the Customs office (at least 3 hrs away) where I'd have to go to pick it. The total cost (item+taxes+fuel) could be enough to get either an even bigger incubator than the one I'm using or 100-200 new chicks of the local breeds. It's really not worth it. Thanks for your effort, though. I'll keep searching the local sites to see if I can find it. I'm also hoping to visit a pet market soon. I'll see if I can pick up something similar before then. It's really tempting to get one I can monitor with my phone.

P.S. Sorry for the long replies. I figured I should add anything I can as it might be a while before the next reply because of the time difference.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I thought that ubuy site I sent you the link for was a Thai site. I figured that was why the govee sensor was about twice the price as the one I buy.
At 772 Bhat it is just over $25. When I get it from Amazon it is $15.
That should make it cheaper than importing.

What I love about it is that it is both thermometer and hygrometer in one tiny unit.
They are both extremely accurate to ±0.54°F and humidity is ±3%RH .monitored every 2 seconds. It stores data for 20 days and is maintained when downloaded to your phone. You can get 3 years of storage in the cloud. It gives high and low temp and RH hourly (to the minute), daily, weekly and monthly with graphing average over that time. I know of no other device that delivers that information for anywhere near the price.

 

[egg-inator]

I thought that ubuy site I sent you the link for was a Thai site. I figured that was why the govee sensor was about twice the price as the one I buy.
At 772 Bhat it is just over $25. When I get it from Amazon it is $15.
That should make it cheaper than importing.

Thai site, based in Kuwait. It basically connects you to overseas shops. Most of the Thai reviews I can find advise against it. I don't know what the acceptable prices are in the US, but 772THB for a hygrometer could make a Thai person faint! Costs even more on Amazon. It's just that we get a different income here. Daily min. wage in Thailand is less than $11 whereas it's $58 in the US. I kind of have a lower, lower Thai income. I'm hoping to get a supplemental income by breeding birds and chickens, starting with the smaller breeds. I have some experience breeding chickens & budgies, but never tried incubation until now. I've just invested in a pair of cockatiels + the required equipment. I'm looking to gain some hatching experience before trying it on cockatiel eggs.

What I love about it is that it is both thermometer and hygrometer in one tiny unit.
They are both extremely accurate to ±0.54°F and humidity is ±3%RH .monitored every 2 seconds. It stores data for 20 days and is maintained when downloaded to your phone. You can get 3 years of storage in the cloud. It gives high and low temp and RH hourly (to the minute), daily, weekly and monthly with graphing average over that time. I know of no other device that delivers that information for anywhere near the price.

The features make my mouth water! I'll definitely save up for it when I get my little project up and running. Thanks for the recommendation!