Welcome to my pond - Swim, wade, or sit on the bank

[WVduckchick]

Well darn it. I found it, copied to paste and closed it, now the paste isn't working.

 

[WVduckchick]

I found this:
http://www.thebirdclinic.com/Avian_Education/AAV_2004_Lectures/L13_Pain_and_Analdesia/

-Kathy

And this:

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/surgery.html
"Why Not Local Anesthesia?

A bird requiring surgery will usually receive general anesthesia. There are several reasons for this. Many local anesthetic agents, such as lidocaine (usually erroneously called novocaine by lay people) that can numb an area, are toxic at doses that provide numbness! Lidocaine must be precisely dosed, and even so, the dose necessary to provide local anesthesia is greater than the toxic dose, in most cases (in small birds). It can be used in tame, large birds, if necessary. Another problem with using a local anesthetic agent is because restraining a bird awake is often very stressful. Signs of overdose with lidocaine may include excitement initially, seizures, depression, respiratory arrest, cardiovascular collapse and death."

Here it is:
http://www.ivsajournals.com/pdf_3628_f14489575e73d63501ee820381ad1119.html

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

The ones Sydney Acres wrote were what sold me on it being safe.

 

[CapricornFarm]

No..but the humidity matched my hygrometer. And temp hasn’t wavered.

But it could be too high or 2 low.

 

[WVduckchick]

The one my Sydney Acres was what sold me on it being safe.

I guess you sold me. But really, even a quick google search still finds many comments on both sides. I choose to believe the medical journals and specific vet tests that showed it takes a pretty high dose to be harmful.... even more to be fatal.

I actually just read one that went so far as to say it could even be beneficial!

 

[casportpony]

More on "caine"

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/turkey-talk-for-2014.838701/page-320#post-13650948

Whew, you really scared me for a minute!! I would never want to recommend something like that if it wasn't safe, so I went and looked it up. (I had received that recommendation from a veterinarian, and because of that hadn't verified it before I passed it on.)

I found multiple references for using both lidocaine (a short acting local anesthetic, commonly used as an injection nerve block or as a topical gel, the brand name is Zylocaine) and bupivacaine (a long acting local anesthetic, used as an injection nerve block, and sometimes more creatively) and benzocaine (a medium-length acting local anesthesia, used as a topical gel, the active ingredient in Orogel) in chickens, ducks, raptors, and "most species" of birds. These products have been used for traditional nerve blocks, injected into joints for arthritis, injected around wounds to provide a "ring block," applied as a gel to small wounds before suturing, and I even found a reference to mixing bupivacaine 50:50 with DMSO and applying it topically to chicks after debeaking (must have been a research project, because I don't see the factory farm industry doing that). There were no references specific for turkeys, but there almost never are, for any drugs. I have been told personally by Dr. Bruce Singbeil that any drugs that are established safe in chickens can be used at the same mg/kg dosage in turkeys safely (as long as the low end of the dose range is used because turkeys are larger than chickens, which is a basic principle of any dosing decision). Dr. Singbeil is someone I trust and is the only veterinarian in the country that is board certified as a specialist in Poultry Medicine (as opposed to a specialist in Avian Medicine, or a regular veterinarian who is licensed to practice on all species, but isn't a board certified specialist in anything) that actually has a hospital and treats individual pets, as opposed to all other poultry specialists who work for industry, universities, or public health.

So bottom line, it is safe to use "cain" medications in poultry, as long as it is done carefully. You're not going to get into trouble with topical medications on a prolapse unless you squeeze the whole tube into the oviduct after you've replaced it back inside, then hold the vent closed long enough for too much of the drug to absorb into the bloodstream (it would probably take a very long time). Just applying a smear to what's hanging out, waiting 5 minutes, then working the oviduct back in will give very minimal absorption into the bloodstream immediately, as most will absorb into the tissues. It will take hours for the drug to slowly work its way out of the tissues, giving the body plenty of time to metabolize it. If you were to use injectable local anesthetics, then poultry are somewhat sensitive to them by comparison to other species, on a mg/kg basis, so total injected dose has to be monitored carefully to avoid complications. But that's true for all small animals and humans. The only time it's not an issue is with cattle and horses, which are so large that it's almost impossible to overdose with those drugs. So I can see how many people would believe that "cain" products are dangerous in poultry. Most vets that come to farms are large animal vets. If a farmer were to ask a large animal vet to treat a 5-10 lb chicken, when he's used to treating a 1,000 lb animal without concern for total injected dosage, I could easily see an overdose occurring. That happens a few times and all of a sudden the medication is labelled as dangerous.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...aine-and-poultry.1130757/page-3#post-17706003

Wow, I haven't seen that writeup in a while -- it was posted years ago.

Since I posted that, I have used both lidocaine and bupivicaine in my birds. I had a turkey hen have her entire side skinned when a tom's toenail penetrated skin, then slid. All 4 nails on the left foot caught, and full thickness skin was peeled down her entire left side, like husking an ear of corn, from backbone to keel, leaving an 8 X 10" skinless area, and a huge amount of attached loose skin shriveled up at the bottomline. Unfortunately, she was on the roost by the time I got home and didn't realize that anything had happened until the next morning. At that point, the skin flap could not be reattached, and was catching debris, which would increase infection. It needed to be cut off, but it still had full nerve sensation. I was able to infuse a combination of lidocaine and bupivicaine, then remove it without causing pain. The wound fully healed with appropriate care, and the hen is still with me, without any obvious evidence of her old injury.

Another time a friend had a chicken with bailing twine wrapped around its foot. It wasn't discovered for 1-2 days, and the foot was severely swollen. The twine had cut deeply into the flesh, around and around the leg, right above where the toes attach. I started unwrapping the twine, but eventually it became too painful. I poured some lidocaine into a cup and soaked the wound in it for 10 minutes. She didn't feel a thing after that, and I was able to dig deep into tissue to remove every strand of twine. It took a while, as the foot was essentially paralyzed, but she fully recovered.

"Caine" products, WHEN USED PROPERLY, are not poisonous to birds. Just remember that these are small animals, not cows or horses, so you have to avoid overdosage.

 

[Miss Ameraucana]

Breathe honey. Its ok. You got her out. Now just keep her on something soft, and let her rest and gain some strength.
Sorry the Brinsea hasn't done well for you. I've heard mixed reviews, so I've held off buying one.



THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK!!!!
Whew....

 

[casportpony]

I guess you sold me. But really, even a quick google search still finds many comments on both sides. I choose to believe the medical journals and specific vet tests that showed it takes a pretty high dose to be harmful.... even more to be fatal.

I actually just read one that went so far as to say it could even be beneficial!

I'm with you.

 

[Alaskan]

I found a place that sells online for $20-$50 and has a long list of traits about the bull.

but... if you don't get local the shipping will kill you, because won't you have to buy a fancy shipper?

 

[CayugaJana]

but... if you don't get local the shipping will kill you, because won't you have to buy a fancy shipper?

I have no idea. I’ll have to look into it. I’m thinking like dry ice or something.