Using CEDAR WOOD CHIPS in the run

[feathermaid]

Currently using maple wood chips in my uncovered chicken yard to prevent mud, but will need to replace soon, maybe next year? I can get locally sourced free chips from a tree service, but may not know the type of trees used. How important is that? I will be able to let them age for a while.

Another option is to buy from a landscape supply company. Mostly they sell bark chips, which I know many reasons not to use. Buuuutttt...

they also sell clean barkless splinter-free cedar chips.

They are used in every playground around my region. I hear every person everywhere say to never use cedar because of fumes, oils and whatnot, but I have yet to see an actual study or scientific facts proving health risks for chickens OUTSIDE. The studies I've come across are done only with rodents and fresh bedding inside, most of those studies don't even differentiate between cedar and pine shavings. So are people just making assumptions and repeating what they've heard over and over, because if it's on the internet it must be true?

I've seen other advice to let the cedar "air out" for some time before using in a coop and it will be fine. Well, I don't want chips in the coop and they will already be dried and in the open air from the landscape company and I'd be keeping them outside anyway. But of course I don't want to endanger my birds.

Does anyone, have some verified evidence to prove cedar chips are actually bad in an outdoor run? (Not a blog, not a company trying to sell their own product, not a rodent study) I could have easily missed something.

 

[paneubert]

Does anyone, have some verified evidence to prove cedar chips are actually bad in an outdoor run? (Not a blog, not a company trying to sell their own product, not a rodent study) I could have easily missed something.

The only thing that you will find on here is the one case where someone had an outbreak of aspergillosis that killed their chickens due to the normal fungal blooms that come from fresh wood chips. Unrelated to the type of wood. My opinion is that arborist wood chips are fine to use from day 1 in a well ventilated/open run. There are risks in everything we do.

 

[danceswithronin]

From what I understand cedar chips and other aromatic wood chips are much more dangerous to young chicks than they are to older birds. The biggest issue people have is putting cedar chips in a hot brooder - the heat from the brooder lamp directly on top of the fresh cedar chips creates fumes, and in a poorly ventilated brooder like some folks use (looking at you gray Tupperware storage bins) the build-up of the fumes can cause problems for the chicks, especially if they are already stressed and fragile due to age or shipping conditions. The respiratory systems of birds are very sensitive. The toxins are mostly an irritant, but it's an irritant that can suppress their immune system and put them under if they're already weak.

In other words, I don't see any issue using this stuff out in the run at all, unless you get a batch that was not aged/aired out well. But I'd never use it in a brooder box.

As for the safety of it, I've heard tons of people talk about how dangerous sand is in a chicken run, yet tons of other people use it successfully with no issues. So I take all advice in animal husbandry with a grain of salt anyway.

 

[IamRainey]

Bushels of pine and alder chips are soooo cheap at various pet and feed supplies that I wonder why you'd take the risk. And freshly ground wood chips take a long time to dry out so that they become absorbent and useful.

I always keep the wood chips when I have trees trimmed (no cedar) but I find they take months and months to dry out to use in my landscape. If you're willing to wait it out, I'd ask the tree trimmer what percentage of cedar trees his stuff might contain. He ought to be able to make an estimation from the number of trees in your ecosystem. If it's low you might decide it's an acceptable risk.

 

[rosemarythyme]

I have cedar chips in my chip mix (can't be avoided around here... if you chip fallen branches, you'll have cedar mixed in) and I use aged chips in both coop and run. I brooded my last batch of chicks out in the run too. The chips work just fine for me and I've never had any chicken show any signs of respiratory issues.

I would probably avoid using all cedar, or fresh cedar (well, fresh anything really... pine sap is awful!), or cedar in closed-in environments (i.e. indoor brooder, coop lacking in ventilation). My coop is well over recommended ventilation plus has a high ceiling for added air volume.

The one place I'd absolutely avoid cedar would be around small pet rodents like rats, which are already prone to respiratory ailments.

 

[aart]

@rosemarythyme makes good sense.

Wonders if the cedar is even the aromatic kind?
Even if it was/is, being outside should greatly reduce any risk.

 

[rosemarythyme]

@rosemarythyme makes good sense.

Wonders if the cedar is even the aromatic kind?
Even if it was/is, being outside should greatly reduce any risk.

I believe eastern redcedar is the most aromatic type (used to line hope chests). Suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask the landscape supply where they source their chips from but I doubt they're shipping batches of cedar in from the east coast when west coast has plenty.

All freshly cut chips will be aromatic to some degree so airing them out no matter the type is always a good idea (plus it avoids the aspergillosis issue).

The one wood I would avoid using is black walnut, which can be toxic to other plants and horses.

 

[feathermaid]

The only thing that you will find on here is the one case where someone had an outbreak of aspergillosis that killed their chickens due to the normal fungal blooms that come from fresh wood chips. Unrelated to the type of wood. My opinion is that arborist wood chips are fine to use from day 1 in a well ventilated/open run. There are risks in everything we do.

I know that thread, tragic story. It does make me wonder about storage of wood chips though...

In other words, I don't see any issue using this stuff out in the run at all, unless you get a batch that was not aged/aired out well. But I'd never use it in a brooder box.

As for the safety of it, I've heard tons of people talk about how dangerous sand is in a chicken run, yet tons of other people use it successfully with no issues. So I take all advice in animal husbandry with a grain of salt anyway.

Agreed on both counts. You also make a good point about the sand issue. Lots of methods are probably debatable to no end.

I have cedar chips in my chip mix (can't be avoided around here... if you chip fallen branches, you'll have cedar mixed in)

This is what I was thinking might happen.


I'm going to do some more checking...

 

[aart]

I know that thread, tragic story. It does make me wonder about storage of wood chips though...

That happened because chippings were dead fresh in the middle of summer so full of leaves making it very wet and with the heat was the perfect storm for an aspergillius bloom.
Not a common occurrence but best to let fresh wet chippings age a bit.....storing them long term does not present the same risks.

 

[feathermaid]

That happened because chippings were dead fresh in the middle of summer so full of leaves making it very wet and with the heat was the perfect storm for an aspergillius bloom.
Not a common occurrence but best to let fresh wet chippings age a bit.....storing them long term does not present the same risks.

That was my conclusion as well. After doing some research on Aspergillus (I really do not enjoy reading scientific findings) I still have more questions. It seems that fungi growth occurs best between 4-6 months of storage, in hot moist conditions. So how to prevent it?

Anything left in a pile is going to create more heat, right? Fresh chips bad. Old chips good. But how old? Who wants to store a pile for 6 months when there's certain to be mold present in there anyway? Longer than 6 months, even a year, wouldn't they start to break down and their usefulness start to dissipate?

So I'm wondering if it would actually be better to spread the chips in the fall or over winter. Even though they would get wet, they would continue to age and they also wouldn't be able to generate the heat necessary to promote mold. Yes or no? A shallow layer of wet and cold chips maybe wouldn't even allow fumes and oils to be very prominent either. It's also a time of year when chickens usually spend most of their time in covered areas, not in the rain where chips would be spread. Even on non-rainy days, how bad could the chips really be?

Am I way out of my mind?

I must admit, I didn't know about the dangers of mold last year when I laid fresh chips (late winter-early spring). They were 3-4" deep with lots of rain, then sunshine. Those chips dried out fast. I also had young birds that survived and are thriving currently. Was I super lucky? Or is everyone else just paranoid... like I am now? I think it's contagious.