Things I don't feed my chickens😊

[NorthwoodsChick]

Unrelated, but we literally can't take those studies on broilers as advice for non broilers. Their bodies are not like other chicken's bodies.

I disagree, respectfully so. The general anatomy and physiology of chicken is not dependent upon breed of chicken. Please share where I can read where a chicken is not a chicken- G. gallus is G. gallus despite genetic variations that determine traits. Man cannot create a species but man can manipulate genetics to alter traits in future generations; so can environment for that matter.

Studies on broiler health and nutrition are logically more prevalent. Broilers are highly consumable (literally and expendably) with far more stakeholders gaining benefit from that research. Backyard flock studies lack the population numbers, rapid turn over in lifespan and cost effectiveness for a comparable study to broilers. Moreover, there are simply too many variables in environment to study breed by breed in the quantity required to suit the average BY chicken hobbyist. In other words, it is not feasible so one is left with no generalizable comparison.
I think many will agree that a well designed study following principles of the scientific process (on broilers in this case) trumps anecdotal evidence left to chance- literally.

 

[SwampPrincessChick]

Please share where I can read where a chicken is not a chicken- G. gallus is G. gallus

The scientific name of a chicken is Gallus gallus domesticus, while the scientific name of red junglefowl－their wild ancestors－is Gallus gallus. So you said two different species there.

 

[RadEggs]

I disagree, respectfully so. The general anatomy and physiology of chicken is not dependent upon breed of chicken. Please share where I can read where a chicken is not a chicken- G. gallus is G. gallus despite genetic variations that determine traits. Man cannot create a species but man can manipulate genetics to alter traits in future generations; so can environment for that matter.

Studies on broiler health and nutrition are logically more prevalent. Broilers are highly consumable (literally and expendably) with far more stakeholders gaining benefit from that research. Backyard flock studies lack the population numbers, rapid turn over in lifespan and cost effectiveness for a comparable study to broilers. Moreover, there are simply too many variables in environment to study breed by breed in the quantity required to suit the average BY chicken hobbyist. In other words, it is not feasible so one is left with no generalizable comparison.
I think many will agree that a well designed study following principles of the scientific process (on broilers in this case) trumps anecdotal evidence left to chance- literally.

I'm not saying they aren't chickens, I'm saying they have been bred to be so anatomically messed up they don't always work like other chickens. This makes me feel the information is semi unreliable.

 

[EddieSalita]

The scientific name of a chicken is Gallus gallus domesticus, while the scientific name of red junglefowl－their wild ancestors－is Gallus gallus. So you said two different species there.

To some of us old farts who follow older definitions, if they can reproduce and create fertile offspring they are the same species.

Species name vs genus name.

Sub species is the term we used to use for variations within species. Dogs are a good example. Wolves and dogs can create fertile offspring. Same species, different sub species.
Things get much more complicated with fish. So we have introduced modern complexity in an effort to get them to work within the system. Sub species variants, regional variants and so on. Domestically we call them breeds.

Zoologists have to do something with their time and funding I guess.

 

[NatJ]

I'm not saying they aren't chickens, I'm saying they have been bred to be so anatomically messed up they don't always work like other chickens. This makes me feel the information is semi unreliable.

I think it would depend on what information you are trying to find.

If you want to know what foods will kill a chicken, and what foods will cause major harm to a chicken, and what foods appear safe for a chicken, I think the broiler studies should be just fine. They will be much more useful than studies about what foods are safe for cows or pigs or dogs or mice or even people. That seems like the point that would matter for this thread.

If you want the "best" chicken feed for a flock, then broiler studies will still be more useful than cattle or pig studies, but will give one specific kind of "best" feed (fast growth, while avoiding health problems bad enough to matter by butchering day, all as cheaply as possible.) The actual "best" food for a flock of backyard pet hens may be much more expensive, not cause such fast growth, and avoid more health problems for a much longer time, but will not be found in broiler studies.

 

[Perris]

if they can reproduce and create fertile offspring

Modern broiler parent stock actually can't. A bird having trouble standing at 6 weeks old doesn't easily live long enough to make sperm and lay eggs. They have been bred into such monsters that they need a lot of human manipulation to reproduce now, including being starved most of the time. Broiler breeder conditions are still overlooked by most of us.
"in order to limit problems, such as obesity, lameness, and ascites, and maintain adequate reproductive capabilities, broiler breeders are feed restricted throughout their production, most severely during the rearing phase where they receive about 45% of the feed allotment that a similar weight broiler receives. As a result, they often exhibit signs of chronic hunger, including object and feather pecking, excessive drinking, and a high motivation to feed, even immediately after consuming their daily ration." From the unintentionally-ironically titled Advances in Poultry Welfare 2018.

 

[Coffetym]

Mine LOVE bread

Try toasting the bread, mine love it so much more.

 

[EddieSalita]

Modern broiler parent stock actually can't. A bird having trouble standing at 6 weeks old doesn't easily live long enough to make sperm and lay eggs. They have been bred into such monsters that they need a lot of human manipulation to reproduce now, including being starved most of the time. Broiler breeder conditions are still overlooked by most of us.
"in order to limit problems, such as obesity, lameness, and ascites, and maintain adequate reproductive capabilities, broiler breeders are feed restricted throughout their production, most severely during the rearing phase where they receive about 45% of the feed allotment that a similar weight broiler receives. As a result, they often exhibit signs of chronic hunger, including object and feather pecking, excessive drinking, and a high motivation to feed, even immediately after consuming their daily ration." From the unintentionally-ironically titled Advances in Poultry Welfare 2018.

A mule can't really be considered it's own species. It's capable of mating. But it's infertile.
A broiler may not even fit into the category of capable of mating. Because you say it's such an abomination.
The geneticists behind these birds would know if the chromosome count, eggs and sperm are capable of producing fertile offspring probably. But they arent sharing.
Maybe someone here has managed to raise broilers long enough to find out.

It seems the idea of the definition was that if the animal can naturally replicate itself, its a species. Broiler definitely doesn't fit this category. But then again, nor do some dog breeds. Humans are odd at times.

It gets to a point where is scientific semantics and good sense goes out the window. Much like many things science, some interests wonder if the can without stopping to wonder if they should.

It seems to be getting worse of recent years.

 

[BDutch]

Modern broiler parent stock actually can't. A bird having trouble standing at 6 weeks old doesn't easily live long enough to make sperm and lay eggs. They have been bred into such monsters that they need a lot of human manipulation to reproduce now, including being starved most of the time. Broiler breeder conditions are still overlooked by most of us.
"in order to limit problems, such as obesity, lameness, and ascites, and maintain adequate reproductive capabilities, broiler breeders are feed restricted throughout their production, most severely during the rearing phase where they receive about 45% of the feed allotment that a similar weight broiler receives. As a result, they often exhibit signs of chronic hunger, including object and feather pecking, excessive drinking, and a high motivation to feed, even immediately after consuming their daily ration." From the unintentionally-ironically titled Advances in Poultry Welfare 2018.

I didn't know wether to give an or on this comment.

But I do believe the commercial chickens like broilers and also (a bit less ) the laying hybrids they use in factory farming are men-kind created monsters. Men/farmers/hatcheries did create monsters for max profit. The male (laying hybrid) chicks get killed immediately because they have no commercial value.

The feed they sell for these monsters is what I can buy in the shop (in the Netherlands). It's not different than the feed they make for the industry.

The problems with broilers are described above.

The problems with commercial laying hybrids are very different. But we all know that they lay like hell from 4-5 months old - approx 18 months when they get their first mount. She often continues to lay until about 4 years old, gets soms nasty problems with her egg-production system and dies before she is middle aged. A chickens lifespan of older breeds and barnyard mixes is normally about 10 years old and even 20 years old is possible if we pamper chickens like we pamper our cats. But there is no thorough research to confirm this because there is no commercial interest.

The high protein feed for broilers seems to work fine for all kind of chicks. The feed with high amounts of calcium and other needs for commercial laying hybrids is not too bad for back yard chickens. But I can't and won't believe it's the best you can give because it's simply not especially made for our barnyard chickens.

And I didn't even mention the residues of poisons they use in GMO soy and corn industry they use in the cheap feed. This can't be healthy to eat her whole life for a chicken. No wonder they often die before it's their natural time. Again, there is no thorough research to confirm this. I have read an indicative research on this that almost prooved it. But the government wouldn't pay for further investigation when the commercial factory farmer organisation read the results. They lobbied with our gov. not to fund any further investigation. (https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ws-on-nutrition.1567953/page-87#post-27270566 this was a research by Louis Bolk institute and WUR).

Not everything needs to be researched know what right and wrong. if people use your common sense in combination with what we know/can read, we come al long way too.

 

[EddieSalita]

I didn't know wether to give an or on this comment.

But I do believe the commercial chickens like broilers and also (a bit less ) the laying hybrids they use in factory farming are men-kind created monsters. Men/farmers/hatcheries did create monsters for max profit. The male (laying hybrid) chicks get killed immediately because they have no commercial value.

The feed they sell for these monsters is what I can buy in the shop (in the Netherlands). It's not different than the feed they make for the industry.

The problems with broilers are described above.

The problems with commercial laying hybrids are very different. But we all know that they lay like hell from 4-5 months old - approx 18 months when they get their first mount. She often continues to lay until about 4 years old, gets soms nasty problems with her egg-production system and dies before she is middle aged. A chickens lifespan of older breeds and barnyard mixes is normally about 10 years old and even 20 years old is possible if we pamper chickens like we pamper our cats. But there is no thorough research to confirm this because there is no commercial interest.

The high protein feed for broilers seems to work fine for all kind of chicks. The feed with high amounts of calcium and other needs for commercial laying hybrids is not too bad for back yard chickens. But I can't and won't believe it's the best you can give because it's simply not especially made for our barnyard chickens.

And I didn't even mention the residues of poisons they use in GMO soy and corn industry they use in the cheap feed. This can't be healthy to eat her whole life for a chicken. No wonder they often die before it's their natural time. Again, there is no thorough research to confirm this. I have read an indicative research on this that almost prooved it. But the government wouldn't pay for further investigation when the commercial factory farmer organisation read the results. They lobbied with our gov. not to fund any further investigation. (https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...ws-on-nutrition.1567953/page-87#post-27270566 this was a research by Louis Bolk institute and WUR).

Not everything needs to be researched know what right and wrong. if people use your common sense in combination with what we know/can read, we come al long way too.

Personally I would love to have a breed that layer 150 eggs a year for 5+ years. Then the occasional egg after that while retiring in dignity teaching the new generation all the tricks. The feed demands would be lower. Their foraging would be more productive.
I'd happily have twice as many semi self sufficient birds for the same number of eggs as hybrid layers or high performance heritage. I'm sure many keepers with acreage would.
I'm sure there is a heritage breed like that. I just don't know which ones they are, such info doesn't seem to be a priority in breed profiles. Or maybe it's more of an individual bird thing. Difficult to select for in breed development?
Maybe I should start a topic?