The American Paint Silkie

[Zgm12]

I have four pullets: 3 paint Silkies and a black split to paint. What would be the best color rooster to breed to these girls to get nice loud paints? Black? Paint?

 

[RubyNala97]

I have four pullets: 3 paint Silkies and a black split to paint. What would be the best color rooster to breed to these girls to get nice loud paints? Black? Paint?

I would think a really decent black with silver genes or a black split to paint.

 

[paris_r]

3 years of breeding resulted in this looker! I think it is a hen but hope it turns out to be a rooster. It is a showgirl.

 

[Kev]

I had a question about paints. Sorry if it was asked before, but I've just been having so much trouble finding a specific answer:
I had a mix between a Red Pyle OEGB and Silver Sebright and these bred with a Showgirl Silkie rooster. There were four chicks hatched, all of which were spotted. The two males were white with red spots and the two females were white with black spots, just like paints. This makes me wonder, was it because the Naked Neck silkie had pink skin and may have been a cross-bred of some sort that dominant white would be found in this line?

Also, the original OEGB and Sebright cross produced hens that were creamy white with a few tiny black dots on them, but I thought that Red Pyle was caused by recessive white? Why would black leak through in this case?

Nice long post. For necessity I will over simplify some things.

Red pyle is dominant white over the red duckwing pattern.

Dominant white(from now on DW) has a strong effect on black pigments and very little on red/gold pigments. That is how you get the Pyle pattern.. the black pigmented areas were "blocked" with the red/brown/golds showing through much more strongly.

A solid white chicken based on DW is genetically a solid black chicken. Put DW on that and you have the DW gene 'stopping' the black and so the result is a solid white chicken.

Recessive white basically interrupts all pigment production, both black and red/gold. So a red duckwing with recessive white would be all white instead of pyle. Example, quite a lot of white silkies are partridge 'under' their white. This is why breeding white with color= some/many partridge chicks is such a common result... as it essentially is doing a partridge(rendered hidden by recessive white) bred with (color).

Silver sebrights are a birchen base bird. basic Birchen is mostly black with some color on neck, a little o breast on the hens, color on hackles, saddle and wing patch area on the roosters.

Lacing is due to a combination of several different genes plus one gene(Db) on a birchen base gives the Sebright lacing pattern. Your pyle OEGB lack all of those genes so what you did was essentially cross a genetically mostly black chicken(sebright) with dominant white birds(the pyles)- your Banshees were a perfect example of what to expect from this kind of cross.

While DW is dominant, in reality it is pretty rare for any dominant gene to be 100% dominant. Basically for whatever reason, a fair number of birds with only one copy of DW tend to have some black spots showing through. I'm not sure why the variation either, it seems there is some kind of effect where you can try to breed for either "cleaner" or "spottier" in a line via selection. Birds pure for DW so far seem pretty reliable for being solid white/showing far less color. Anyways the Banshees having only one copy of DW 'opened the door' for some black spots to show through.

The red/buff/brown showing through is a different issue, it is due to the bird not being genetically solid black. A solid black chicken requires either the extended black or birchen gene plus modifier genes that cover up the colored areas. It's a common struggle for breeders trying for solid blacks or blues in dealing with off color showing up. Same basic idea.

Noel is showing genes from the sebright ancestry, some of the genes required are dominant/semi dominant, it simply floated down hidden under the white for generations so when you bred to another color it 'finally had a chance to show up'. (pretty bird btw) He won't actually throw dalmatians as he does not have dominant white... but if bred with a paint or DW hen, there can be some chicks with spots, but the blue is also a dilutor of black, so the chicks that might otherwise be spotty might look whiter or lighter due to the blue diluting 'away' some spots however there can be a few birds showing blue spots though.

For concentrated effort on producing paints/dalmatians it is best to breed with either other paint/dalmatians or black/blue chickens, especially if they were out of this kind of project as there can be a chance they carry the unknown/hidden "helper genes" that help with the spottiness.

 

[GitaBooks]

Nice long post. For necessity I will over simplify some things.

Red pyle is dominant white over the red duckwing pattern.

Dominant white(from now on DW) has a strong effect on black pigments and very little on red/gold pigments. That is how you get the Pyle pattern.. the black pigmented areas were "blocked" with the red/brown/golds showing through much more strongly.

A solid white chicken based on DW is genetically a solid black chicken. Put DW on that and you have the DW gene 'stopping' the black and so the result is a solid white chicken.

Recessive white basically interrupts all pigment production, both black and red/gold. So a red duckwing with recessive white would be all white instead of pyle. Example, quite a lot of white silkies are partridge 'under' their white. This is why breeding white with color= some/many partridge chicks is such a common result... as it essentially is doing a partridge(rendered hidden by recessive white) bred with (color).

Silver sebrights are a birchen base bird. basic Birchen is mostly black with some color on neck, a little o breast on the hens, color on hackles, saddle and wing patch area on the roosters.

Lacing is due to a combination of several different genes plus one gene(Db) on a birchen base gives the Sebright lacing pattern. Your pyle OEGB lack all of those genes so what you did was essentially cross a genetically mostly black chicken(sebright) with dominant white birds(the pyles)- your Banshees were a perfect example of what to expect from this kind of cross.

While DW is dominant, in reality it is pretty rare for any dominant gene to be 100% dominant. Basically for whatever reason, a fair number of birds with only one copy of DW tend to have some black spots showing through. I'm not sure why the variation either, it seems there is some kind of effect where you can try to breed for either "cleaner" or "spottier" in a line via selection. Birds pure for DW so far seem pretty reliable for being solid white/showing far less color. Anyways the Banshees having only one copy of DW 'opened the door' for some black spots to show through.

The red/buff/brown showing through is a different issue, it is due to the bird not being genetically solid black. A solid black chicken requires either the extended black or birchen gene plus modifier genes that cover up the colored areas. It's a common struggle for breeders trying for solid blacks or blues in dealing with off color showing up. Same basic idea.

Noel is showing genes from the sebright ancestry, some of the genes required are dominant/semi dominant, it simply floated down hidden under the white for generations so when you bred to another color it 'finally had a chance to show up'. (pretty bird btw) He won't actually throw dalmatians as he does not have dominant white... but if bred with a paint or DW hen, there can be some chicks with spots, but the blue is also a dilutor of black, so the chicks that might otherwise be spotty might look whiter or lighter due to the blue diluting 'away' some spots however there can be a few birds showing blue spots though.

For concentrated effort on producing paints/dalmatians it is best to breed with either other paint/dalmatians or black/blue chickens, especially if they were out of this kind of project as there can be a chance they carry the unknown/hidden "helper genes" that help with the spottiness.

Thank you so much for the response. That helps a TON. I've got a good number of Dalmatian chicks out of my last hatching so I'll see what comes of them once they mature. I've also got some black and blue chickens to see if they can help along with that.

Again, thank you so much. : )

Here is one of them, fully feathered now and showing off her colors.


Eve's eleven, most of which have some form of spotting. I'm not sure who the father was, but I think she is the biological mother of all of them.


Izzie outside feeding with two of my blue/splash chicks.


A blurry picture of one of the young roosters, Wally.

 

[Kev]

Thank you so much for the response. That helps a TON. I've got a good number of Dalmatian chicks out of my last hatching so I'll see what comes of them once they mature. I've also got some black and blue chickens to see if they can help along with that.

Again, thank you so much. : )

Here is one of them, fully feathered now and showing off her colors.


Eve's eleven, most of which have some form of spotting. I'm not sure who the father was, but I think she is the biological mother of all of them.


Izzie outside feeding with two of my blue/splash chicks.


A blurry picture of one of the young roosters, Wally.

Glad to have helped and very cute chicks! If you have more or specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

I may have forgotten to answer the naked neck gene question? It is dominant gene but there is a visual difference between those pure(NN) vs not pure(Nn)- and to further that, nn= not naked neck.

NN birds have either a totally clean neck or a small bowtie with just a few feathers, with the neck plainly visible below it. Nn birds have more feathers on the neck, making more like a bib, and often the front of neck is hard to see.

To get chicks with naked necks, it is required for at least one parent to be either NN or Nn. The nn birds completely and totally lack the gene and will never 'throw' naked necks by themselves- the only way these nn birds can produce naked necked chicks is if their breeding mate is NN or Nn...

NN bred with nn will throw 100% naked necked chicks however all will be Nn.

Nn bred with nn will throw 50% Nn and nn.

Nn bred with Nn will throw 25% NN, 50% Nn and 25% nn.

NN with Nn- chicks will be half NN other half, Nn.

There is a "but" though I need to mention as this thread is about silkies also. Pea has the side effect of reducing the overall feathering on the bird, it is normally not visible on nn birds... but it becomes apparent on naked necked birds- Nn with pea combs usually have smallish bowties, making them look NN. Plus NN birds with pea combs often come up totally clean necked, not strictly always though.

Rose comb has a similar effect, generally less than pea comb though.

It's the same situation with dominant white- it's dominant but if the bird is not pure for it and bred to a bird lacking it, only half of the chicks will get the dominant white gene.

I crossed a cornish cross roo(heh) with a blue and a partridge naked neck hens. No history of paint, dominant white in the hens. The chicks came out either solid white or variable spotting- some with just a few, a few with nice amount of patches for a first generation cross. But this also supports the idea of paint being a "leaky dominant white" bird. I suspect at least some the whiter birds may be blue, from the blue NN hen, with the blue basically 'diluting' any colored spots away. Solid whites can and do happen without any other dilutor genes though.





I do like the patches of black and might try and see about breeding for larger patches in the future generations..

 

[Mia Sebastian]

I just hatched 10 paint silkies amd got 5 spotted, 4 whitesand a black one. two of the white ones have pink skin, is this normal?

 

[tmcoulombe]

Bought this roo and in a good pic it's easy to see his black paint marks but it's his head that's got me stumped. My white silkie roo has similar feathering but it's more down the neck with totally typee head. Would welcome input! Is it just me being inexperienced?

 

[tmcoulombe]

His actual name is from a rocker of my era with a long blond main of hair because of how unusual it struck me. He has a lot of other silkie stereotypes so I am merely curios.

 

[GitaBooks]

Bought this roo and in a good pic it's easy to see his black paint marks but it's his head that's got me stumped. My white silkie roo has similar feathering but it's more down the neck with totally typee head. Would welcome input! Is it just me being inexperienced?

Are you talking about the feathering or the orange staining? Lots of my Paint chickens have orange or lavender staining on their feathers. This is something breeders try to select out of generally, but in the early stages of developing a color/breed it isn't as important as the paint pattern its self.

He's a handsome dude. : )