new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[EddieSalita]

I have been eating beef butter bacon and eggs with some veg for months and no processed food. My arthritis is gone, I feel strong and not hungry all the time. Hungry all the time equals more money for the processed food industry. What an amazing business plan for them while they make us all sick in the meantime with sugar and processed foods. Not me anymore. I’ve opened my eyes.

Carnivore diet is the ultimate elimination and anti inflammatory regimen imo. Anyone suffering from inflammatory health and gut issues are likely to be stunned how they feel after one month. I highly recommend trying it.

There are a few approaches to it. The biggest problem that people have with it is not eating enough fat. Protien poisoning can be a thing.

 

[ManueB]

I'm back to poultry nutrition with a question that may seem a bit out of subject for the thread, but I promise there is a link if you read to the end.

We are getting very warm weather now which I think for many poultry keepers has been the case for some time.
Before I discovered BYC, I gathered what information I could on chicken feed in other places and have listened a few times to Fertrell's podcast on poultry nutrition. While they are far from advocating for " real" food some of the information was quite interesting as it differed from what I could usually read.
One thing that struck with me was adjusting protein content with the weather. The argument was that more protein is needed to regulate heat, whereas during winter more carbs and fats are needed. (The person who pointed me to this episode actually believed one of the causes of her rooster's death was among other causes, overdosing on too much protein in winter.)

Anyway back to the subject of this thread. Most of us who give real food as complement or part of the daily ration to our chickens probably do tend to give corn, sunflower seeds, scratch, left over pizza ( no just kidding) in winter. However in summer, I think we give mostly seasonal produces, especially those of us that have gardens, that help with hydratation, like melon and watermelon, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce...

Do any of you have input on this ? What do you think about the assumption that chickens need more proteins to regulate heat, and does that mean we should be giving more scrambled eggs, mackerel, meat scraps when it's really warm ? Or is that total nonsense ?

 

[Perris]

the podcast linked to in #756 explains protein's role as building structure - the body and the things in it - as opposed to fuel, which fats and carbs provide.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...trad-views-on-nutrition.1567953/post-27005095

On the value of feed companies' advice I urge caution. Yesterday I was reading up on vitamin E and came across (not for the first time, but I'd forgotten it) this in Poultry DVM:
https://poultrydvm.com/condition/vitamin-e-deficiency-in-chickens

“Vitamin E has been shown to be essential for integrity and optimum function of reproductive, muscular, circulatory, nervous, and immune systems. Vitamin E is stored throughout all body tissues, with highest storage in the liver. Vitamin E an essential nutrient for chickens of all ages, and its deficiency causes several disorders…

Nutritional muscular dystrophy, also known as white muscle disease or nutritional myopathy, is a disease that primarily affects the chicken's striated muscles [emphasis added]. It involves progressive weakness and degeneration of the muscles that control movement. Affected chicks are often unable to stand or walk, and are seen on the ground with their legs spread laterally.

Nutritional Recommendations for Vitamin E in Chickens

Vitamin E levels recommended in the Nutrient Requirements of Poultry (NRC, 1994) are extremely low and were determined solely based on enhancing productivity traits of broilers and laying hens, and not in relation to immune enhancement and long term health and well-being. Based on latest research studies, vitamin E requirements recommended for chickens at various stages of growth [are much higher]” emphasis added

“Risk Factors

Feeding chicks starter feed that is more than 2 weeks old

Improperly storing feed

Purchasing poor quality feed

Feeding breeding chickens laying hen feed, without providing additional vitamins and minerals needed for breeding

Feeding vitamins that are past their expiration date

Feeding chicks a diet high in rancid fat

Diet lacking antioxidants”

 

[EddieSalita]

I'm back to poultry nutrition with a question that may seem a bit out of subject for the thread, but I promise there is a link if you read to the end.

We are getting very warm weather now which I think for many poultry keepers has been the case for some time.
Before I discovered BYC, I gathered what information I could on chicken feed in other places and have listened a few times to Fertrell's podcast on poultry nutrition. While they are far from advocating for " real" food some of the information was quite interesting as it differed from what I could usually read.
One thing that struck with me was adjusting protein content with the weather. The argument was that more protein is needed to regulate heat, whereas during winter more carbs and fats are needed. (The person who pointed me to this episode actually believed one of the causes of her rooster's death was among other causes, overdosing on too much protein in winter.)

Anyway back to the subject of this thread. Most of us who give real food as complement or part of the daily ration to our chickens probably do tend to give corn, sunflower seeds, scratch, left over pizza ( no just kidding) in winter. However in summer, I think we give mostly seasonal produces, especially those of us that have gardens, that help with hydratation, like melon and watermelon, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce...

Do any of you have input on this ? What do you think about the assumption that chickens need more proteins to regulate heat, and does that mean we should be giving more scrambled eggs, mackerel, meat scraps when it's really warm ? Or is that total nonsense ?

I only have opinions. But I would have thought protien would be especially important during/after moulting. Which is usually end of winter. I know mine definitely eat more when it's cold. Not that 5 degrees C counts as cold for most people. But when it's hot (35+ for weeks), they definitely eat less.

I'm not well versed on chicken metabolism regarding fat, sugars and protien burning and if there is much similarity with humans. In mammals there is a vast diversity in such things. From obligate carnivores adept at converting protein to energy through to efficient fat burners like humans and canids. Then good all round metabolisms like those of bears and pigs. Not to mention remarkable ruminats. Chickens (galliformes) are as unique and specialised as any mammal. With their crops and unique digestive arrangement. I can't comment of the nature of chicken metabolism. In a cursory search I get nothing but bloody keto diets and chicken meat.

Generalisation is ok. But each family of species has its own specialised metabolism. Some can convert aminos and vitamins etc where others can't. I think the answer would require a deeper understanding of chicken metabolism.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Nature doesn't reinvent the wheel (often). Converting carbs into energy is very easy (meaning efficient), there's little waste heat. Converting fat into energy is a ittle less efficent, there is more waste heat. Converting protein into carbs to then convert into enery is much less efficient - more waste heat.

Only in winter, that "excess" metabolic heat isn't wasted, since it helps keep the body warm.

That's the simple view, anyways.

 

[Molpet]

Nature doesn't reinvent the wheel (often). Converting carbs into energy is very easy (meaning efficient), there's little waste heat. Converting fat into energy is a ittle less efficent, there is more waste heat. Converting protein into carbs to then convert into enery is much less efficient - more waste heat.

Only in winter, that "excess" metabolic heat isn't wasted, since it helps keep the body warm.

That's the simple view, anyways.

this is what I had been taught

 

[saysfaa]

...Do any of you have input on this ? What do you think about the assumption that chickens need more proteins to regulate heat, and does that mean we should be giving more scrambled eggs, mackerel, meat scraps when it's really warm ? Or is that total nonsense ?

A couple of thoughts on it, semi related to each other.

Even assuming more protein is used to regulate body temperature in warm weather vs cold weather, I don't think it would be very much more or it would have shown up in the endless feed trials over the past hundred years or so.

If the protein level is so close to barely enough that it requires supplementation for warm weather then there isn't enough margin for normal life the rest of the year either - healing wounds, regrowing feathers, individual metabolism differences, and so on.

I'd rather recommend offering meat options all year. Besides the nutritional benefits, it may avoid such silliness as people thinking they need to feed straight corn in the winter. Or to feed meal worms as if they were only protein and not also fat.

 

[Geena]

this is what I had been taught

I always feed higher protein feed to my adult birds in the winter, due to molting and then also as a prelude to collecting hatching eggs. Once that's done I put them back on 16% figuring they can forage for extra protein via insects through the spring and summer.

 

[NatJ]

I only have opinions. But I would have thought protien would be especially important during/after moulting. Which is usually end of winter. I know mine definitely eat more when it's cold. Not that 5 degrees C counts as cold for most people. But when it's hot (35+ for weeks), they definitely eat less.

If the feed has the same percent protein all year long, the hens are getting more total protein (grams per day) in the winter than summer, because they are eating more total feed.

As for protein needs when molting: hens usually quit laying eggs while they are molting. So a hen who is molting instead of laying has the protein that would go into an entire egg, each day, to grow her feathers, just from eating her usual food (but if she eats less feed than usual, or gets insects in summer but not winter, she might need a higher percent protein in her base feed to get the correct amount each day.)

 

[Geena]

Nutritional Recommendations for Vitamin E in Chickens

Vitamin E levels recommended in the Nutrient Requirements of Poultry (NRC, 1994) are extremely low and were determined solely based on enhancing productivity traits of broilers and laying hens, and not in relation to immune enhancement and long term health and well-being. Based on latest research studies, vitamin E requirements recommended for chickens at various stages of growth [are much higher]” emphasis added

That's interesting, the chick starter I use is much lower in Vitamin E than what is recommended there. My chicks have always been healthy and I can't remember ever losing one other than those who have hatched out poorly.
Wheat germ oil might be a good way to boost their vitamin E.