new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[U_Stormcrow]

The energy content of the feed controls the feed intake when fed !without any restrictions! A higher energy content lowers the daily feed intake, while a lower energy level will lead to increased intake.The efficiency of the feedis determined by the feed conversion (feed intake in relation to the egg mass produced).

it’s gonna be so funny if I end up with lower feed cost and better egg return than storm.

Unfortunately, very few feeds provide their typical ME. Nor do most make at home recipes give it consideration. DO keep in mind that a diet high in energy but low in nutrition will result in either birds eating less (thus magnifying the nutritional deficiencies) because their energy needs are met or eating more (to meet their nutritional needs) and converting some portion of the excess energy to fat at potentially dangerous levels.

and, of course, the activity levels of your birds will - in part - determine their energy needs. As will climate.

Let me know when you get your feed costs under $0.33/lb and you get your feed consumption under 1/6th of a pound per day - which is where I'm at right now.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You will likely beat my egg return though, almost half my flock is going into its third year, and about 40% of those are low production breeds (Brahma, SLW)

 

[Sally PB]

Let me know when you get your feed costs under $0.33/lb and you get your feed consumption under 1/6th of a pound per day - which is where I'm at right now.

 

[Ital]

Let me know when you get your feed costs under $0.33/lb and you get your feed consumption under 1/6th of a pound per day - which is where I'm at right now.

Unless they really love nettle powder it’s not likely

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Come winter, I'll be back at about 1/4# per bird again. I was standing in front of the feed locker today, trying to figure out how I had just over 1 50# bag of goat feed left, almost 5 50# bags of chcken feed, and less than 1/4 bag of rabbit feed.

The pricing is just 'cause I got a really good deal this month. Its varied a bit of late, anything from $0.31 to almost $0.39

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Unless they really love nettle powder it’s not likely

Even if I could get everything else right - and knowing what I know, as well as being in an "Ag State" - I could make a real effort at it, probably do a passable job, I can't compete on price.

Maybe I could compete on price against a higher tier product at a TSC, Rural King, or Petco, as long as I stayed away from organic (when the limited product supply would again pervert the economics).

But the pasture is performing remarkably well at this moment. Lots of bugs, the flax is in bloom, the panic grass still has seeds on it, some of the other grasses are seeding, lots of clovers, some other stuff. Also, the little F'n dinosaurs are denuding my blackberry bushes.

 

[Sally PB]

Unless I want to go to layer feed, I'm pretty much stuck at .45/lb. (I miss the cents sign...) for my purchased feed. 50 pounds lasts about a month for my 6 adult chickens.

This month, it might go further, as they're getting buckets of weeds from the garden. In about 5-6 weeks, it'll be Japanese Beetle season. Hubby has given the ok to storing some in the freezer for off season feeding. (That really surprised me.)

Also, the little F'n dinosaurs are denuding my blackberry bushes.

Can you cover the blackberry bushes with bird netting? Or put some kind of fence around them?

I have to fence in anything I don't want the deer to browse.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Unless I want to go to layer feed, I'm pretty much stuck at .45/lb. (I miss the cents sign...) for my purchased feed. 50 pounds lasts about a month for my 6 adult chickens.

This month, it might go further, as they're getting buckets of weeds from the garden. In about 5-6 weeks, it'll be Japanese Beetle season. Hubby has given the ok to storing some in the freezer for off season feeding. (That really surprised me.)

Can you cover the blackberry bushes with bird netting? Or put some kind of fence around them?

I have to fence in anything I don't want the deer to browse.

We are getting off topic, but I have about half an acre of them, spread over parts of three acres. The goats do a prety good job of keeping them from fruiting where they grow in the pasture, but the chickens do a pretty good job of ignoring the electric fence, so...

/and back closer to topic, I'm not suggesting people can't do better than I am - I truly hope they can, because that means I can do better too! Its why I work a bit each year on my pasture. I'd really like to get to a point where it provides half my chicken's needs during the best months.

 

[Perris]

Note however (Same Lohman Source, jump to page 14.) They are recommending diets for their layers in the low 11 to 12 MJ range.

Now jump to P 47 for their calulation.

How LOHMANN is calculatingthe energy content of feed and raw materials(International WPSA-formula):
ME MJ/kg =

g crude protein x 0.01551+
g crude fat x 0.03431+
g crude starch x 0.01669+
g sugar x 0.01301 (as Saccharose)

ME = metabolizable energy in MJ/kg1 kcal = 4.187 kJ

As a practical matter, that constrains the amount of fat which can be reasonably included in the diet - though I continue to agree that one can deliberately design a high fat chicken feed which is still plenty acceptable nutritionally - by very careful control of the starches and sugars. Menaing the additon of significant amounts of nutrient dense sources (such as dried mealworms) to a diet of unknown energy has the *potential* for dietary imbalance. less potential with liive mealworms because they are less nutritionally dense, being roughly 60% water.

Understanding that there is a bit of variation in mealworms, as an agricultural product, we cabn still rely on Google to get us a rough estimate.

1 Kg Dried mealworms about 280g fat, 530g protein, 85g carbs, the rest "stuff" (Water, minerals, etc) gives an ME MJ/kg of 18.933** about 65% over target +/- depending on hen age. If the chicken reduces its feed consumption once its daily ME neeeds are met (as most breeds are known to do), that means its taking in less of the other (likely primary feed) with its vitamins, minerals etc - offset by whatever vitamins and minerals the mealworm provides (they are, for instance, a generally good source of several B vitamins and non phytate Phosphorus)

**I used 0 for sugars, couldn't find a good source for that metric. We are rough guessing, I contend its close enough for illustrative purposes, mealworms are not known as a significant source of dietary sugars.

that's for caged layers. No exercise. No chance to eat anything else. Requirement to produce as many eggs as possible in about 18 months and disregard any other especially long-term bodily maintenance needs.

I went to Lohmann to find out what the industry itself thinks (rather than academics). Their remarks that I cited for Harlequin seem to be their response to the sort of fat phobia they've no doubt received and we see here sometimes. As Spector pointed out, and I did when I started this thread (post 1), that fat phobia and the associated nutritional advice dished out over the past several decades is not rational and is not supported by very extensive evidence.

 

[Perris]

Plan is to provide mini j pipe dispensers of everything separated to make sure they don’t run out of anything which will only work if it’s dried.

Obviously you've got who knows what commitments besides chicken-tending and you'll need a system that works for you, but this seems to put the cart before the horse. I'd decide on the nutrition you want to provide and then figure out how to deliver it. Letting the delivery system determine the nutrition is what feed manufacturers have to do, and is what leads to most of the problems they encounter and then have to add things to solve.