new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Ital]

you do know you need to soak if not ferment a lot of dried foods to remove some or all of the anti-digestive chemicals the plant puts into them to try to protect its seed and help it survive even if eaten, yes?

I removed split peas from the list for this reason, the quinoa is pre washed to remove the saponins before I get it, do you know of any others?
It was the crazy high levels in insects I had in mind vs the live worms yours will be foraging.
I’m not sure why conversations about food get so heated, It’s weird.

 

[Perris]

I removed split peas from the list for this reason, the quinoa is pre washed to remove the saponins before I get it, do you know of any others?
It was the crazy high levels in insects I had in mind vs the live worms yours will be foraging.
I’m not sure why conversations about food get so heated, It’s weird.

I'm a bit lost with your plans. What's your aversion to soaking? Crazy high levels of what in insects?
I call it frank rather than heated

 

[Geena]

I’m not sure why conversations about food get so heated, It’s weird.

I don't either Personally it's hardly a hot button topic for me. I feed a combination of commercial feed and fresh foods and see the advantages and drawbacks to both.

 

[Shadrach]

I'm not sure that's true. So often overlooked, the so-called 'optimal' diet includes the least cost element and a short lifetime (c. 18 months); it is optimal for the egg farmer, not the chicken. A 'spent hen' shows how far short of even an adequate diet (from the bird's complete health point of view) it really is.

I suspect (but cannot cite any proper study to demonstrate) that a bird with a better diet will lay more, as well as better quality, eggs than a commercial layer on a commercial diet.

I haven't made myself clear. I have no doubt that one could feed a far better diet than the commercial feed for any chicken.

I was considering the chance of a production breed being able to find sufficient forage of quality to maintain egg production and health.
150grams of anything usefull is quite a tall order for a forage fed chicken. 25 grams of that would need to be protein. Even finding enough calcium would be a challenge I think.
Mid range layers would struggle but may do okay with kitchen scraps assuming some decent grade protein in them.

One would have to provide the bulk of a production breeds diet and that gets expensive.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I've not run across this study before, bumped into it while looking for the one I usually rely on. It compares egg production (and other factors) at various levels of crude protein, and finds a higher variation thant the other studies with which I am familiar.

This is one of the studies I'm familiar with (jump to table 3) showing a relatively small increase in egg production at the higher protein levels. It also happens to be one of the lengthier studies, looking at birds through (essentially) their first two years of age).

and I'm having a beast of a time finding the one I usually link - will need to look for an older post or try and remember the usual keywords.

Differences are small enoguh that some studies say egg prodction decreases but size (weight) increases with increased protein, some say there is no effect, some say met levels (or total SAAs) make the most impact, some say production and size increases on average - but xcpting the first study I linked, none of them talk about changes greater than a few %.

I don;t recommend higher protein in an efofrt to spike egg production, I recommend it for other reasons - noting that most (effectively all) of these studies are lookign at only commercial lifespans, a much shorter period than many (most?) BYCers keep their layers, that they are focused on production layers (not "dual purpose" birds) and that the dietary related mortality rates of commercial layers are higher than many of us would likely be comfortable with. In short, I'm making some educated guesses and reasopnable inferences.

 

[Ital]

I'm a bit lost with your plans. What's your aversion to soaking? Crazy high levels of what in insects?
I call it frank rather than heated

Fat in dried mealworms for one, I’d rather they ate more of the crickets and calci worms.
I’d like everything in the all they can eat buffet to be dried so I can more easily provide a constant supply and then the fresh stuff will be varied on top.
I find it’s when I run out of things that I’ll end up eating a stupid amount of peanut butter out of the jar but if the cupboards are full I’ll eat more variety.
Plan is to provide mini j pipe dispensers of everything separated to make sure they don’t run out of anything which will only work if it’s dried.

 

[Perris]

Fat in dried mealworms for one, I’d rather they ate more of the crickets and calci worms.
I’d like everything in the all they can eat buffet to be dried so I can more easily provide a constant supply and then the fresh stuff will be varied on top.
I find it’s when I run out of things that I’ll end up eating a stupid amount of peanut butter out of the jar but if the cupboards are full I’ll eat more variety.
Plan is to provide mini j pipe dispensers of everything separated to make sure they don’t run out of anything which will only work if it’s dried.

I really don't think you need to worry about the fat level in mealworms, fresh of dried. Have a look at this https://lohmann-breeders.com/use-of-fat-and-oil-in-professional-feed-mixtures-for-laying-hens/ including the bits "The addition of fat and oil also supports liver health (the liver as the most important metabolic organ of laying hens) and reduces the occurrence of fatty liver syndrome (FHLS)." and "The addition of fat and oil in the feed alongside an associated higher crude fat content does NOT lead to fatty hens or to increased storage of body fat, as it is often suggested"

 

[Perris]

Further to the last, we need to be better at distinguishing between concentrates and real food. It is possible to overdose on concentrates (the clue's in the name; the stuff in it is already concentrated); it is much less likely with real foods.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Note however (Same Lohman Source, jump to page 14.) They are recommending diets for their layers in the low 11 to 12 MJ range.

Now jump to P 47 for their calulation.

How LOHMANN is calculatingthe energy content of feed and raw materials(International WPSA-formula):
ME MJ/kg =

g crude protein x 0.01551+
g crude fat x 0.03431+
g crude starch x 0.01669+
g sugar x 0.01301 (as Saccharose)

ME = metabolizable energy in MJ/kg1 kcal = 4.187 kJ

As a practical matter, that constrains the amount of fat which can be reasonably included in the diet - though I continue to agree that one can deliberately design a high fat chicken feed which is still plenty acceptable nutritionally - by very careful control of the starches and sugars. Menaing the additon of significant amounts of nutrient dense sources (such as dried mealworms) to a diet of unknown energy has the *potential* for dietary imbalance. less potential with liive mealworms because they are less nutritionally dense, being roughly 60% water.

Understanding that there is a bit of variation in mealworms, as an agricultural product, we cabn still rely on Google to get us a rough estimate.

1 Kg Dried mealworms about 280g fat, 530g protein, 85g carbs, the rest "stuff" (Water, minerals, etc) gives an ME MJ/kg of 18.933** about 65% over target +/- depending on hen age. If the chicken reduces its feed consumption once its daily ME neeeds are met (as most breeds are known to do), that means its taking in less of the other (likely primary feed) with its vitamins, minerals etc - offset by whatever vitamins and minerals the mealworm provides (they are, for instance, a generally good source of several B vitamins and non phytate Phosphorus)

**I used 0 for sugars, couldn't find a good source for that metric. We are rough guessing, I contend its close enough for illustrative purposes, mealworms are not known as a significant source of dietary sugars.

 

[Ital]

The energy content of the feed controls the feed intake when fed without any restrictions. A higher energy content lowers the daily feed intake, while a lower energy level will lead to increased intake.The efficiency of the feedis determined by the feed conversion (feed intake in relation to the egg mass produced).

it’s gonna be so funny if I end up with lower feed cost and better egg return than storm.

The more I find out the more I’m inclined to let the chickens do any necessary calculations. It’s too complex with too many unknown variables.