new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[NagemTX]

I agree that they will over eat. I think overabundance of food available combined with not needing to hunt it down and complacent safety are the contributors to it. It's not the feed its self but a combination of those things. We watch the behavior of wild vs. not wild. They don't always find food and it's a struggle to find it when they do. Easy find vs difficult. What's burning more energy will keep them leaner.

 

[saysfaa]

How would this happen if dogs don't overeat?

"The most recent statistics classify the majority of dogs in the U.S.—56%—as overweight or obese. ... cats...

What I don't get is folks denying that animals will overeat because that is not reality.

I was sloppy in what I said. Food available all the time isn't the only factor. It is appropriate food, also not junk food.

Also, not being taught to ignore their appetite.

Edit to add...
I also don't know how universal it is. Cats, specifically, I don't know about.

There are the studies with poultry that show they will choose diets as appropriate as commercial pellets rather than pick and choose. In the studies, each ingredient was given in a separate dish and each was available all the time. Those are likely key factors. Because if people do things like call them for a treat - I think that is teaching them to ignore their appetites - they are eating for the social reasons rather than for the nutrients. Mixing a little high value food into the dish may be a similar thing.

 

[saysfaa]

Then there are the ways to manipulate feeding instincts. Color of feed or of the dish, height, distance from water, temperatures, frequency, and so on. Sheltered spot or open spot. If one knows what they are, they can be used to increase or decrease consumption.

If one doesn't know what they are, they still have the same influences. Although, of course, some may offset others.

Exercise is surely a part of all this.

 

[Shadrach]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27563209...7779&msclkid=8ea3f752fe3c143239f6935ffea2abe6

or

Beef. Appoximately 900mg per 100g of meat.

There's the Methionine sorted. The beef might push your feed costs up a little

 

[centrarchid]

So some days they eat say the corn and just leave the BOSS? or do they eventually clean it all up throughout the day?
Hopefully when you get time you can post the results of your student's feed experiment. I'm sure we'd all be interested in reading about it.

When it is really cold, they target the corn more, especially when topping off crop for the night.

I'm trying to format the findings for a thread. Last time I tried was a failure.

 

[Shadrach]

Exercise is surely a part of all this.

Indeed and so as centrachid points out is acreage.
There is also what a keeper wants for their chickens. There isn't much arguement that if one wants maximum egg production at minimum cost with expectation that the hens will be eaten after a certain percentage drop in egg production then commercial feed will do the job.

 

[Geena]

Then there are the ways to manipulate feeding instincts. Color of feed or of the dish, height, distance from water, temperatures, frequency, and so on. Sheltered spot or open spot. If one knows what they are, they can be used to increase or decrease consumption.

If one doesn't know what they are, they still have the same influences. Although, of course, some may offset others.

Exercise is surely a part of all this.

I totally agree, there are a lot of different factors involved, but if an animal takes in more than they expend, eats junk food, eats from boredom or for social reasons, in the end it's still overeating. It's up to us to manage them properly.

 

[Vadard]

I'm ambivalent on the whole "ingredient count" thumb rule. Its perhaps a good guide if you don't know anything, but the number of ingredients does not necessarily make a feed better, or worse. Right now there are a large number of feeds being produced with a laundry list of latin coming from the vitamin.mineral premix being added to raw grains during milling to make a complete feed.

Here's example from a very popular one:
Monocalcium Phosphate, Organic Dehydrated Kelp Meal, Salt, DL Methionine, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite, Riboflavin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Active Dry Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product.

If you don't know the vitamin and mineral content of the grains you are grinding (and chances are, you don't), that Premix provides a phytate Phosphorus source, some trace minerals, Salt, extra Methionine (because its so hard to get in green growing things), another calcium to ensure an appropriate CA : P ratio, Vitamin A, D3, E, K, B2, B5, B3, Choline Chloride (you don't need this - its included as a growth promoter - but its also found readily in nature in animal and fish meat, in chicken eggs, in soybeans, and in some grains, like the germ of wheat kernals), B12, more B12, B1, B6...

and then you get to all this stuff [Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Active Dry Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product]

Those are almost entirely enzymes either to make nutrition in the feed being offered either more bioavailable, or to coutneract some of the antinutritional factors present in the assumed grain mix.

Do they make things better? Maybe. Depends on your grain mix. Do you need them? Again, depends on your grain mix. They (like all those water soluable B-vitamins that get flushed if they aren't used) are present as insurance, possibly entirely unnecesary insurance.

OTOH, if your feed is "corn, whole wheat, milo, peas, oyster shell (as a source of calcium carbonate)" its not necessarily superior just because it has a limited number of ingredients, all of which you can pronounce. Neither is it necessarily worse. Does it have at least the minimum levels of the desired B vitamins? Selenium, non-Phytate Phosphorus? a bunch of other things I could rattle off? WHO KNOWS. In regards trace minerals particularly, their content in grains varies with climate and grounds - two bushels of corn, from the same state, harvested the same day, may have hugely differing levels of selenium, based entirely on its presence (or lack) on the fields where its grown. and another bushel harvested later in the year on the same fields could have still different levels.

Read your guaranteed nutrition tag. It and the mill date are the two most useful piece of information on the bag.

Thanks for the detailed response. I’ll stick with the last line. K.I.S.S.!

 

[Perris]

LOL, I'm not just talking about theory. I've been surrounded by dogs and involved in the dog world for my entire life, 50+ years.

How would this happen if dogs don't overeat?

"The most recent statistics classify the majority of dogs in the U.S.—56%—as overweight or obese. While that makes obesity a major health crisis for dogs, it’s a problem that’s often overlooked, as many pet owners may not even realize their pets are overweight. "

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/n...-a-major-health-threat-hiding-in-plain-sight/

and cats

" “Obesity in cats is definitely a growing problem,” says Carolyn McDaniel, VMD, a lecturer in clinical sciences at Cornell University’s College of Veterinary Medicine. “Probably 50 percent of cats seen at veterinary clinics these days are overweight, if not obese.” "

https://www.vet.cornell.edu/departm...alth-information/feline-health-topics/obesity

and yes, chickens too

" Obesity can kill hens and it is not always obvious they are getting fat as most of it tends to be found around the internal organs rather than under the skin. Owners should regularly weigh their chooks to help identify excessive weight loss or weight gain. "

https://www.bhwt.org.uk/hen-health/learn-about-hens/obesity-in-chickens/#:~:text=Obesity can kill hens and,weight loss or weight gain.

https://the-chicken-chick.com/chickens-obesity-silent-killer-how-to/

As someone who has seen the insides of hundreds of chickens I can assure you that they can and do get obese, particularly older hens. Cockerels and roosters not so much.

I wholeheartedly applaud what some people in this thread are doing, in trying to find a better and more natural way to feed their chickens. My hat is off to you! I spent a couple of thousand dollars fencing in acres of pasture and woods for my chickens to forage in safely. I get it!!

What I don't get is folks denying that animals will overeat because that is not reality.

You ask "How would this happen if dogs don't overeat?"

Spector's principal argument is that obesity is associated with the consumption of ultra processed foods, rather than overeating per se. Animal feed concentrates (aka pellets, kibble, whatever it is that lets an animal - dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, chicken - get its day's requirements in much less time and with much less energy expended than it would if they were finding their food themselves) are upfs.

On obesity in chickens specifically: “Fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome (flhs) in poultry is associated with high carb, low-fat, selenium-deficient diets given ad lib.” Macwhirter Malnutrition chapter in https://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/avian-medicine/ p.851. Pellets are typically high carb, low fat. They shouldn't be selenium deficient.

I think you would find Spector's book a very interesting read Geena.

 

[Perris]

I have found a recent paper on free choice feeding for meat birds, to complement those on free choice for chicks and free choice for laying hens in post #9 above
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...ewer/f6d0fa455d8cf3c3e942664c46edae5984181a4b

The conclusions are "1. In conclusion, free-choice feeding of free-range chickens resulted in similar weight gain and lower breast yield compared with formulated feeding. 2. Free-choice feeding cost less than the fully formulated diet in this study. 3. Free-choice feeding may be more suited to small- or medium-scale production rather than large-scale production." There is no evidence the birds choose a deficient diet (or excessive fat) from their ability to choose what to eat.

It also observes that "Although grinding, formulating, mixing, and pelleting may have advantages for feed intake or FE, many small producers are interested in whole grain feeding to reduce the energy used in feed processing and also for gastrointestinal health. Whole grain feeding enhances the development of the gastrointestinal tract so it is better able to absorb dietary nutrients, optimizing gut performance [29]. "