new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[U_Stormcrow]

It's because you have to obverse your flock, right?

Say you grow a clover and white millet cover crop (as an example), and they mostly eat... the clover. The following pasture you have to remove the millet and replace it with another plant they might like, and keep the clover and maybe increase the amount.

You have to do trial and error to figure out what they like to eat.

If by "observe" you mean opening up and looking, yes. Plenty of visual examination, too. How do they behave, how fast do they grow, how big do they get, how productive are they (eggs/hen), what's your hatch rate, how disease resistant are they? When you take them apart and look inside (as I am doing this weekend - freezer camp!), how are the internal organs? Oversized kidney, liver are signs of issues. Fat levels. Even the condition of a fresh cracked egg. How "rich" does it taste, how quickly does the albmin set, does the yolk stand up firm and high, or is it sort of shallow and spread? Yolk color is deceptive - it can indicate high levels of some vitamins - like beta-carotenoids, which can be converted to Vit A - but it can also be from less nutrtionally valuable pigment sources. I consider it mostly "marketing".

Even then, you don't have certain knowledge, because you have no basis for comparison to determine if your birds could be doing better, if only they had more of something.

That's where people tend to make the most mistakes. "My birds look fine" compared to one another may be true, but it has little to do with how much better they might be doing.
Ultimately its risk management, and risk/reward. I feed my birds as well as I can within a price range I find acceptable. Increases in feed costs to obtain a superior feed are significant - I'm at one of those plateaus where a little improvement would cost a lot - and the research says the benefits of those improvements (at least gross improvements like crude protein) are expected to be very small. So instead of buying more expensive feed, I put $100 to %150 a year (one month's feed bill) into improving my pasture to add biodiversity and improve soil condition.

Oh, and knowing what I do about feed, and my management methods, I take some feed cost savings methods which I KNOW have long term health consequences for some of my birds - I simply plan to cull before those consequences are measurable. I consider it educated risk at acceptable levels. Should I find myself mistaken, in the fullness of time, I'll change methods, or feeds, or both. But I don't recommend people do as I do. I recommend they do their research and decide for themselves.

 

[saysfaa]

According to Tim Spector, Food for Life: the new science of eating well, Jonathan Cape 2022: xiv
Myths that have benefited the food industry and which we should now dispel include: all calories are equal, low-calorie foods are good, high-fat foods are bad, artificial sweeteners are healthy, high levels of processing are harmless, and food and vitamin supplements are as good as real food.

Spector is Professor of Genetic Epidemiology at King's College London, and honorary consultant physician at Guy's and St Thomas' hospitals. These are all world class institutions. He is writing about human diet and nutrition, but much of it applies to chicken diet and nutrition too.
.,,

I agree this far.
And with this

..,There are papers showing that both laying hens and chicks select a balanced diet if offered all the necessary elements separately...

Those aren't the only studies that found similar results in poultry. Also with bison. And dogs, I think. Dogs generally don't overeat if they always have food in their dish. I'm not sure if it needs to be from puppyhood for dogs.

What I'm still working on is the "if offered all the necessary elements separately" part.

and all the fancy calculations on limiting amino acids are just to find the least possible amounts you can get away with, which might be what a commercial producer wants but isn't what most of us want.

I agree with this too. However, if the grain seeds plus peas plus silage and dandelions or whatever don't meet the "least possible amounts you can get away" on an as-fed basis either then the proposed solution doesn't solve the problem.

Expecting the hens to find their own solutions by free ranging could do better. I am sure it does do better when enough of the elements work together.

I see a lot of people (probably not you) not understanding the pitfalls of taking parts of one system (that works as a system, such as many hours per day free ranging in a woodlot) and applying them to an entirely different system. Such as free ranging for an hour or two per day on a lawn.

I think it (feeding chickens real food) can be done and will be much better than any system I've seen yet. I don't know how yet. Thank you for the links and your comments; I learned a few more of the pieces from them.

 

[Perris]

However, if the grain seeds plus peas plus silage and dandelions or whatever don't meet the "least possible amounts you can get away" on an as-fed basis either then the proposed solution doesn't solve the problem

I honestly think there are few natural environments so poor in an essential nutrient in the tiny quantities most of them are required that this is the exception not the norm. An area may be deficient in something, like yours in selenium, but these things are easily fixable, normally; you could supplement with a few sunflower seeds every now and then for example. Most weeds have not been analysed for their nutritional profile - they've only recently got round to grass for goodness' sake, despite lauding pasture-raised this or that for decades! - and if something can't be sold for a profit in a shop it gets neglected by the nutritionists and companies they work for.

If you provide varied forage of plants that grow naturally in your environment, and don't kill everything (plant or animal or fungus) that arrives on its own, I would trust your chickens to find what they need from the buffet on offer, just as their jungle ancestors did and do, with the added bonus of whatever food you choose to provide in addition for whatever portion of their diet you choose to provide it. The alternative is to trust big ag to provide your chickens with everything they need. To each his own. I'm just tired of a few people shouting down anyone who posts a question about feeding anything except concentrates (pellets).

 

[centrarchid]

All this discussion so far does not consider acreage per bird. I am running about 14 hens in an 8.5-acre area where they use only about four acres as certain areas are far better than others, at least during the winter and early spring. As the season progresses and chicks / juveniles come into being with their greater need for insects, a much larger portion of the area will be used, and it is very likely the types of micro-habitats foraged the most will change. At this point in time the insect side of things is more detritus based while the plant side is south facing areas with reduced wind. The foraging habits change considerably with wind direction, speed, and temperature. Some of that is due to food availability and some is related to thermal challenges the chickens are facing.

Without getting in the experiment, I mentioned previously, I have been doing a long-term experiment where shelled-corn, BOSS, oats and millet are scatted about. The chickens do not have a straight preference for one grain over another. They seem to prefer a relatively consistent ratio of seed types at least over a period of several days. Even as the preferred seed type becomes rare, they still look for and consume it preferentially. At the moment, BOSS is at the top for being preferred.

 

[Geena]

Even as the preferred seed type becomes rare, they still look for and consume it preferentially. At the moment, BOSS is at the top for being preferred.

That's what I would expect, that they would go for the high fat high calorie items first. In nature foodstuffs like that would only be available for certain periods of time and so it would be unlikely that they would be able to overindulge for long.
What I wonder is if you kept supplying them with large amounts of BOSS would it continue to be the preferred seed and would they consume that almost to the exclusion of other items, even if it was to their detriment.
I might have to try an experiment this summer on some meat birds and see how letting them select their own diet works out.

 

[Geena]

Dogs generally don't overeat if they always have food in their dish. I'm not sure if it needs to be from puppyhood for dogs.

Dogs don't generally overeat if all they ever get is a dish full of not particularly appetizing kibble. Try putting a big bowl full of meat out everyday and see what happens.

 

[saysfaa]

Dogs don't generally overeat if all they ever get is a dish full of not particularly appetizing kibble. Try putting a big bowl full of meat out everyday and see what happens.

They still don't overeat according to many people on the yahoo prey- model rawfeeders list when I was following (for several years about ten to fifteen years ago). These were people who regularly fed that way - not just talked about theory.

I don't know from my own experience. I fed free choice except during the year or so I rawfed my dog. I was pushing my suburban-raised husband's tolerance enough with the raw meat/bones/organs as it was. Especially since I didn't have a good way to feed it outside - as some of the people on the list did.

The people who did it said the dogs often ended up with a gorge/fast eating pattern but didn't gain excess weight. Again, I am not sure how successful it is when started with adult dogs - at least adult dogs when have been trained to ignore their body's signals about food.

 

[centrarchid]

That's what I would expect, that they would go for the high fat high calorie items first. In nature foodstuffs like that would only be available for certain periods of time and so it would be unlikely that they would be able to overindulge for long.
What I wonder is if you kept supplying them with large amounts of BOSS would it continue to be the preferred seed and would they consume that almost to the exclusion of other items, even if it was to their detriment.
I might have to try an experiment this summer on some meat birds and see how letting them select their own diet works out.

Not always preferring high fat / high calorie. It varies as a function of what forage provides

 

[Geena]

not just talked about theory.

LOL, I'm not just talking about theory. I've been surrounded by dogs and involved in the dog world for my entire life, 50+ years.

How would this happen if dogs don't overeat?

"The most recent statistics classify the majority of dogs in the U.S.—56%—as overweight or obese. While that makes obesity a major health crisis for dogs, it’s a problem that’s often overlooked, as many pet owners may not even realize their pets are overweight. "

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/n...-a-major-health-threat-hiding-in-plain-sight/

and cats

" “Obesity in cats is definitely a growing problem,” says Carolyn McDaniel, VMD, a lecturer in clinical sciences at Cornell University’s College of Veterinary Medicine. “Probably 50 percent of cats seen at veterinary clinics these days are overweight, if not obese.” "

https://www.vet.cornell.edu/departm...alth-information/feline-health-topics/obesity

and yes, chickens too

" Obesity can kill hens and it is not always obvious they are getting fat as most of it tends to be found around the internal organs rather than under the skin. Owners should regularly weigh their chooks to help identify excessive weight loss or weight gain. "

https://www.bhwt.org.uk/hen-health/... can kill hens and,weight loss or weight gain.

https://the-chicken-chick.com/chickens-obesity-silent-killer-how-to/

As someone who has seen the insides of hundreds of chickens I can assure you that they can and do get obese, particularly older hens. Cockerels and roosters not so much.

I wholeheartedly applaud what some people in this thread are doing, in trying to find a better and more natural way to feed their chickens. My hat is off to you! I spent a couple of thousand dollars fencing in acres of pasture and woods for my chickens to forage in safely. I get it!!

What I don't get is folks denying that animals will overeat because that is not reality.

 

[Geena]

Not always preferring high fat / high calorie. It varies as a function of what forage provides

So some days they eat say the corn and just leave the BOSS? or do they eventually clean it all up throughout the day?
Hopefully when you get time you can post the results of your student's feed experiment. I'm sure we'd all be interested in reading about it.