Developing My Own Breed Of Large Gamefowl For Free Range Survival (Junglefowl x Liege)

[BoogieWight]

One difficulty I have as I research and learn about gamefowl is finding accurate information that’s consistent, where experienced gamefowl people often have their own opinions on things that often conflict with each other and neither opinion can be said to not be based on experience. Case and point, some gamefowl people won’t consider a bird “game” if it will tolerate another male at any time past chickhood. In which case the “game” response is caused by artificial selection that increases aggression beyond what would be found in nature. If you offer examples of birds behaving differently, the response is “well those birds must be dunghills.” Others insist that a bird can be a “real” gamefowl and still set up a degree of a natural pecking order, where a mature cock will keep order and tolerate stags until they’re mature, at which time they may become challengers. Or when new mature bird is dropped into the mix. In that scenerio, the “game” response is due to a fight between unknown strangers in what in nature would amount to an interloper invading a new territory. Thus, the cock pit would be simply a simulation of what’s found in nature when two wild junglefowl clash over hens or territory and both are similarly matched, and “game” is more of a preservation of the wild traits with artificial selection only modifying the trait slightly.

I’ve had both definitions thrown at me over the last couple of years and each person will fight for however they define “game” about as fierce as the roosters themselves.

The wild definition seems to make more sense to me, and yet I can’t rule out that decades of tie cord raising hasn’t modified gamefowl from what they were 150 years ago. All I know is my family used to free range their gamefowl on about 100 acres of Florida woods and the brood cocks would set up territories in the woods and avoided each other. My great grandfather and great uncle collected stags and cocks for fighting off the woods free rangers, but only my great uncle is alive and I suppose because I’m a part of “The State” in my profession he won’t give me the time of day to give me any info about the family birds. I actually laid all of this out in the JF thread.

I only say all of that to say, what you’re describing is the sort of nature I’m looking for. Birds that will set up territories and space themselves out and otherwise tolerate each other if they know one another. If they trigger once in a while and kill each other, that’s fine. I’m all for them killing a stranger on sight. They just need to be able to allow more than one mature rooster or bullstag to live around the area so the homestead isn’t left wanting if the dominant rooster dies.

Sorry for the late response. I attached two pictures with a very much retired bird that pretty much has his own space on the yard. A fella died and his wife didn't want to take care if his birds so I bought some if them. This one normally only has only two hens that stay with him off and on throughout the day. A lot of the young birds tend to stay in his area and actually move to his tree after the hens ditch them. I won't lie to you and say that his spot wasn't hard earned especially at his old age, cause it was hard to just let it happen sometimes. This is a prime example of a "proven" game that has learned his place and functions well in it. He ain't the only one, but I do keep that scenario to a minimum for obvious reasons.
I will say that in my experience once a game rooster is broken they take a lot longer than other birds to get their confidence back. It can seem like a long process, but if they do end up finding a place they have a freedom that most chickens will never experience. Its a win for them and a win for me.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

This is still in the works. The Liege aren't laying yet. It does appear that the rooster I would prefer the Liege to breed has accepted them now.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

As far as the Liege themselves, they've adapted to 100% free range well. They can fly decently and they have no problem roosting high. The pullet with the golden hackles above is the heaviest of the three. I don't have recent pics of the other two, the two "blue" hens, but they're a lot leaner. Very athletically built, but I have a notion they'd be a lot heavier if they were confined and fed heavy processed diets.

Their personalities are feisty. They're not inclined to spar like my Cracker/JF hens do, but they love to bite when they don't get their way. It could be me they're biting or even my heritage turkey Jake.

Also, concerning hawks and the Liege's alleged penchant for killing them, I am now aware of two different, unrelated people in north Florida who have testified to me that their Liege roosters have killed hawks. One of the persons who told me so is a permaculturalist from Gainesville who isn't involved in the wider chicken community or gamefowl community to my knowledge and isn't likely to have been influenced by whatever hype might be out there. In fact the way I found out about his account was that the rooster in question had recently died of natural causes and the fellow was mourning the rooster about like someone would a good dog. The rooster had a gimpy leg his whole life and the crippling injury came from his fight with the hawk when he was a younger rooster. The fellow watched the rooster kill the hawk in protection of the flock and the rooster broke his leg in the process.

I would expect a swaggering gamefowl guy to maybe fib about his roosters. Some of them do in my experience. But this fellow is a bit of a hippy (no offense intended to him at all) and I just don't see a motive for him to make it up.

I'm also quite surprised to see how established Liege are in north central Florida. There's quite the population of them spread around the Gainesville/Williston/Ocala area. I guess that should make sense where Greenfire is just a couple of hours away.

 

[BoogieWight]

This is still in the works. The Liege aren't laying yet. It does appear that the rooster I would prefer the Liege to breed has accepted them now.View attachment 2528920

Just curious how your project is going so far. Do you have a general profile/traits that are showing up, a particular trait that you are having trouble getting rid of, or are you still stirring the gene pool for happy accidents? I won't lie about the reasons for my curiosity. I seem to have rushed my project a little and threw too many variables in the equation. I have a cross (pullet) off a liege hen that is short with low station. She weighs 7lbs at 8 months and is doing well in the two flocks she swaps between. The trick is that I have zero roosters that show short or low station, but it is in some of their lineages. In short give us some details on where you are at now, outlying problems/bonuses that you have, or maybe some hurdles you thought were important and what you did to get around them.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Just curious how your project is going so far. Do you have a general profile/traits that are showing up, a particular trait that you are having trouble getting rid of, or are you still stirring the gene pool for happy accidents? I won't lie about the reasons for my curiosity. I seem to have rushed my project a little and threw too many variables in the equation. I have a cross (pullet) off a liege hen that is short with low station. She weighs 7lbs at 8 months and is doing well in the two flocks she swaps between. The trick is that I have zero roosters that show short or low station, but it is in some of their lineages. In short give us some details on where you are at now, outlying problems/bonuses that you have, or maybe some hurdles you thought were important and what you did to get around them.

I can't offer any input yet. My Liege still aren't laying so I won't be able to do any crossing until they do.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I can't offer any input yet. My Liege still aren't laying so I won't be able to do any crossing until they do.

I have a question about the Liege Fighters. Can they be kept with regular chickens without a problem, including roosters?

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I have a question about the Liege Fighters. Can they be kept with regular chickens without a problem, including roosters?

Seems that way so far. I only have pullets, no roosters. I don’t ever see them face off and spar like my Cracker hens do. When they get mad they just reach down and bite whatever is making them mad. Or in the case of the turkey gobbler, reach up. Earlier in the thread I talked about their penchant for biting me when they want food. They still do. Pretty hard sometimes. Always my ankles.

And yet I can pick them up in my arms and they’re fine. Sometimes they’ll nip and my hands but that’s always a light nip in that context.

They’re more inclined to force themselves into the feed barn when my back is turned. Often then slip in throw the door and go get in the feed barrels. Once one slipped in and stayed in the barn all day without me realizing it. I found her laying in the bottom of a feed barrel where she ate herself into a stupor.

If I didn’t say it elsewhere, I find them to be excellent free rangers. My Liege look skinnier than most peoples’. When I pick them up they’re skin, bones, and lean muscle. I think that’s a function of the sparse food I give them and constant foraging. I recently moved one of my Cracker brood cocks off farm and after being on the new farm a couple of months, penned and with access to all the food he wanted, he got very fat. So my Liege would probably be heavier if I raised them different. They fly well and have no problems flying high to roost. No issues with them taking heavy falls as I’ve read some people experience.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Seems that way so far. I only have pullets, no roosters. I don’t ever see them face off and spar like my Cracker hens do. When they get mad they just reach down and bite whatever is making them mad. Or in the case of the turkey gobbler, reach up. Earlier in the thread I talked about their penchant for biting me when they want food. They still do. Pretty hard sometimes. Always my ankles.

And yet I can pick them up in my arms and they’re fine. Sometimes they’ll nip and my hands but that’s always a light nip in that context.

They’re more inclined to force themselves into the feed barn when my back is turned. Often then slip in throw the door and go get in the feed barrels. Once one slipped in and stayed in the barn all day without me realizing it. I found her laying in the bottom of a feed barrel where she ate herself into a stupor.

If I didn’t say it elsewhere, I find them to be excellent free rangers. My Liege look skinnier than most peoples’. When I pick them up they’re skin, bones, and lean muscle. I think that’s a function of the sparse food I give them and constant foraging. I recently moved one of my Cracker brood cocks off farm and after being on the new farm a couple of months, penned and with access to all the food he wanted, he got very fat. So my Liege would probably be heavier if I raised them different. They fly well and have no problems flying high to roost. No issues with them taking heavy falls as I’ve read some people experience.

They sound like my Silkie Cinder. Very bitey.
Good to know the hens mix well. Maybe I can find info on the roosters/cockerels somewhere which will be helpful.

They're interesting birds. I'm wishing you luck on your project again.

 

[BoogieWight]

My straight Liege do well with the rest of my birds. The hens are a little more pushy than the roosters, but I would say on most occasions that it is the other bird that starts it. One group of around 5ish liege hens have a submissive cemani/ancona (fairly small) hen that stays with them 24/7. I have never seen them touch her, and they won't let anyone touch her (never a feather out of place). The roosters do seem to take forever to fully mature though. Think double or maybe even triple the time span of your average breed.

 

[BoogieWight]

If I didn’t say it elsewhere, I find them to be excellent free rangers. My Liege look skinnier than most peoples’. When I pick them up they’re skin, bones, and lean muscle. I think that’s a function of the sparse food I give them and constant foraging.

Don't worry we have similar feeding situations and ours stay stringy looking until about the time they fully mature. One day you will look at them and be surprised how much meatier they have gotten.