before you give wormer, please read

[Wyorp Rock]

you apparently didn't read this: vet manual, professional version, about poultry worms and wormers, the quote is just a small part of the entry, you might want to read the whole page

Did you read it?
https://www.msdvetmanual.com/poultry/helminthiasis/helminthiasis-in-poultry

Yes, that's the first line summary of the article. I can somewhat cherry pick through the article too, let's be clear of that.

Reading further.

I see symptoms listed throughout the article some include:
unthrifty, inactivity, depressed appetite, death, emaciation, granulomas, suffocation, weight loss, thickening of and inflammation of organs, thickening of cecal/intestinal walls, nodule formation, inanition, weak, maceration, gasping, choking, diarrhea...... there's more, but you get the picture.


"""""Field studies show that poultry maintained under free-range conditions may be heavily parasitized; therefore, control measures such as preventing infestations or chemotherapy can improve weight gain and egg production. Prevalence of helminthiasis is greater in poultry raised under nonconfinement conditions than in those housed in cage production systems (1)."""""

I suppose an argument "for" modern commercial poultry operations and confinement - yes?
""""Modern confinement rearing of poultry has substantially decreased the frequency and variety of endoparasite infestations such as helminthiasis, which are common in ranged birds and in backyard flocks. However, severe parasitism still may occur in floor-reared layers, breeders, turkeys, or pen-reared game birds where management problems may exist.""""

What's the solution? Do your best to keep a tidy coop/run, if you free range great. IF at all possible, get a fecal float to confirm the presence of worms. (Not everyone has vet access or can afford a vet). If vet care is not an option, then Treat Judiciously.

While yes, the argument can be made that the birds can bear a worm load and still live, do consider what impact the parasites are having on the overall health of the bird and what, if any damage is being done internally.

You mention that worms don't kill chickens. Perhaps you are partially right on that point. A few worms if the infestation is heavy enough can cause the bird to suffocate (die) or block intestines (die). Others cause internal inflammation, damage to organs, etc., so I suppose technically the worms did not kill the bird, just their presence created an underlying condition/illness/infection (whatever you want to call it) that did kill the bird.

Let's be clear. This is the first line of the entry on helminthiasis in poultry in the MSD vet manual:
"Helminthiasis is infestation by parasitic worms. In rare cases, affected birds develop clinical signs such as apathy or diarrhea. "
In rare cases birds develop clinical signs. Signs such as apathy or diarrhea. Not that worms kill chickens.
https://www.msdvetmanual.com/poultry/helminthiasis/helminthiasis-in-poultry

 

[Perris]

Did you read it?

yes, several times. And the article I cited earlier in BMC Vet research 2021, and some others.

That worms are common outside of the modern 'all in all out in 6 week timeframes with disinfection in between' modern production method is not in dispute. Modern confinement when combined with the deep litter method does not qualify as better than free range (see e.g. "Helminth infections in free-range chickens, even when they occur in low numbers, may result in subclinical disease (Pinckney et al., 2008). A study by Permin et al. (1999) revealed a higher risk of helminth GIT diseases in free-range and backyard systems, but prevalence may also be high in deep litter systems." https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psj.2021.101173 )

The issue is about how much, or even whether, worm infection matters. The presence of worms is normal and natural and not per se a problem. That was the whole argument of the article about which I started this thread, and which almost no-one seems to have read. Shooting something scary on sight and asking questions about the wisdom of it later is a very bad modern Western habit.

Some BYCers write as if the presence, actual or suspected, of a single worm in their chicken is a death sentence. The literature worth reading, like the vet manual, includes mortality as a possible outcome, but makes clear that the principal consequence of infection with worms is reduced weight gain for broilers or number of eggs laid for layers. It is about marginal improvement in productivity and efficiency in industrial chicken and egg farming.

On which, I don't recall reading anywhere a statistical analysis actually demonstrating the difference that the prophylactic administration of wormers - which are having a significant negative impact on the wider environment through the defecation of millions of animals treated with them; there is a cost to this behaviour being paid by other animals in other places than the chickens in the coop - actually makes to either weight gain or number of eggs laid. Can you supply such?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Yes, I read it. Of course parasites are part of the ecosystem, just like anything else. She's fascinated by a parasite that litterally does take over and cause its host(s) to commit bug-o-cide (drown itself in water) so the parasite can continue to reproduce - cycle of life...
The literature is mainly focused on commercial operations, of course weight gain and production are both a concern in a commercial operation.

No, I haven't taken the time to look for the % of increase/decrease or mortality that worms have on commercial poultry operations. I'm sure that there's some studies out there if you dig for them. Likely through the NIH?

 

[LaFleche]

Regarding the claim of 'not deadly' I have to add that prior to my early deworming practice I lost young chicks to 'unknown causes' and had them necropsied by the
https://www.tiho-hannover.de/kliniken-institute/kliniken/klinik-fuer-gefluegel.

The results came back as

#death by capillaria infestation causing anemia, malnutrition and obstruction of the digestive system.

#death by malnutrition and anemia caused by tapeworm infestation.

Others seem to have similar experience:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...e-them-warning-pictures.1623677/post-27736267

Of course, I can only speak about my own experience as a private breeder whose birds often reach the age of 8 and more years while still laying.

Commercial enterprises only strive to keep their laying birds alive for the first laying period and will not deworm as this would mean loss of income due to withdrawal periods.

And in the short 6-8 week life span of meat birds there will be no need for deworming either as they plan with a certain percentage of loss anyway.

 

[Perris]

Regarding the claim of 'not deadly'

No-one is claiming that there is no mortality. Everyone accepts that in cases of severe infestation worms can kill. But the literature shows that such cases are rare, they are not the norm. And the literature also shows that prophylactic treatment is at best brief in its effects, is creating resistance, so that the drugs will not work on the worms targeted (and other unintended targets) when they really are needed, and that even without that, the overuse of these drugs can be counterproductive.

There are alternatives, including simple things like letting birds forage among common 'weed' species where they live. See e.g. "Despite the widespread occurrence of subclinical helminth infections in these backyard birds, the authors noted that bird growth was not impacted negatively. This is consistent with observations by Sharma et al. (2018) that performance, egg production, or quality in free-range laying hens were not affected by infection with A. galli." An overview of health challenges in alternative poultry production systems 2021 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psj.2021.101173

 

[LaFleche]

prophylactic treatment

'Prophylactic treatment' with dewormers would only work for ingested worm eggs that then can be prevented from developing into worms.

Other than that for me the only ways to reduce internal parasite pressure would be

to rotate pasture meaning they should not be kept on the same grounds all the time.

To keep their coops and in case of penned up birds , their runs clean and dry.

To regularly and thoroughly clean their water dispensers which should not be accessible for wild birds.

To not have feeders sitting about all the time inviting wild birds and all kinds of rodents and critters to stuff themselves while leaving their droppings in and around the feed.

I don't feed commercial poultry feed but prepare my own mixtures using organic products only.

 

[Perris]

Other than that for me the only ways to reduce internal parasite pressure would be

For me, what works (no birds lost to worms here; the layers' productivity is probably below their maximum potential, but the sale of surplus eggs still covers all my costs; this is a low-input modest-output management model) is

• to let them go where they like, when they like
• eat what they like, and supplement what they forage with homemade whole grain based feed at dawn and dusk.
• They sleep and lay in small coops designed for just those purposes, and which are
• poo-picked daily, and
• taken apart and washed with plain water and elbow grease as required (if red mites are discovered for example).
• New stock are incubated and raised by broodies within the coops, and
• chicks are on grass from the moment they leave the nest with mum. And,
• no antibiotics ever, as they do more harm than good to the microbiome. Non-use allows nature to select the fittest animals here to reproduce and progressively improve the gene pool.

I've been developing this since 2017 and the health of the flock seems to have improved with each generation; I believe but cannot demonstrate that some antibodies are being passed on in the egg, and further that some immunities are being passed on by fecal transplant. (The role of the microbiome in enhancing the host's immunity is an active topic of research at the moment.)

I lose so few to predation and illness with this system that this year I have to cull some in order to make space for new chicks, as we have reached the carrying capacity of the land.

 

[LaFleche]

some antibodies are being passed on in the egg,

I am convinced they are, as from my experience chicks that are hatched from my own well adjusted blood lines prove to be more robust and even somewhat resistant to coccidiosis and the local Marek strains whereas chicks that hatched from eggs acquired from other breeders seem to have a harder time to adjust to my local environmental conditions.

 

[Perris]

As it happens, there is a piece in the Guardian about antimicrobial resistance this morning, which explains in a very clear way what it is and how it's spreading
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...tance-and-how-big-a-problem-is-it-antibiotics

 

[Perris]

Further to this

(The role of the microbiome in enhancing the host's immunity is an active topic of research at the moment.)

there's a piece in our national online paper today that has essentially reduced it to easy to read bullet points
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/doctors-advice-secret-weapon-your-29160467

It's about people's health of course, but chickens are also monogastric (as opposed to ruminants, like cows) and a lot of it will be similar and relevant to them too.