BBS breeding and dilute / white splash

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Ok, first read through completed and

Here's what I know of Chonkers genetics, the rooster was a chocolate frizzle silkie, he must be true sexlinked chocolate because none of the hens he was in with were chocolate, yet I purchased 3 chocolate pullets from the breeder from the same pen I got the hatching eggs from. There was a satin paint in the pen with the chocolate rooster who must be the hen Chonkers came from. I have no idea beyond that what they may have had going on genetically.

Here are two more views of Chonkers
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Testcrossing as mentioned before will probably confirm this, but he's pretty textbook leaky paint. I dug up one of the breeders I'd found talking about this on Facebook to confirm what I'd remembered. From their experience, the gold gene tends to give the birds more paint flecks, but also tends to give them this dirty/dingy look along with that, especially the males. That tracks from what I'd said before about the 'dirty' appearance being from essentially a fine mist of black pigment leaking throughout the feathering. If gold lets more black flecks leak through, then it makes sense that it's more likely to cause this.

My old man, Reuben, I think is S/s+ based on the offspring he had and their offspring, but I never 100% confirmed that through breeding. However, he is confirmed paint through breeding. You can see on him the same general dingy-white color and that it gets a bit paler in the tail, feet, and base of the crest than the rest of the body. He doesn't have as much of that color as OP's bird, possibly because of being S/s+, though unconfirmed. This is how this kind of leakage tends to show up, however. (He also has a little bit of a yellowish patch on his back and side right now from being poo'd on, so don't mind that )

This is another male (not mine) confirmed paint through breeding who shows it better; darkest in the hackles and back, dingy in the chest and wings, paler in the tail, feet, and crest:

This dingy leakage is pretty well established as a thing that happens in breeding Paint Silkies. A lot refer to it as 'champagne' leakage if that helps with searching for more about it, but bear in mind it's not the same thing as the 'champagne-blond' dominant gold dilution gene.

And here is another cockerel from the same pen, black frizzle with a funky comb @pipdzipdnreadytogo I would love to hear your thoughts on his comb genetics.

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That does not look familiar to me in my crossings with walnut combs, if I'm being honest. Hwever, I do know that there are genes that smooth combs out or add bumps, hence why for example both Wyandottes and Redcaps both have rose combs R/? (rose being dominant, they could be either R/R or R/r+ with the same effect), but they are vastly different in appearance. So to me, he does look like P/P and R/? as he should have, just with something else modifying the base shape. Sorry that I don't have any definite answers for you on that, though!

 

[2ndTink]

Testcrossing as mentioned before will probably confirm this, but he's pretty textbook leaky paint. I dug up one of the breeders I'd found talking about this on Facebook to confirm what I'd remembered. From their experience, the gold gene tends to give the birds more paint flecks, but also tends to give them this dirty/dingy look along with that, especially the males. That tracks from what I'd said before about the 'dirty' appearance being from essentially a fine mist of black pigment leaking throughout the feathering. If gold lets more black flecks leak through, then it makes sense that it's more likely to cause this.

My old man, Reuben, I think is S/s+ based on the offspring he had and their offspring, but I never 100% confirmed that through breeding. However, he is confirmed paint through breeding. You can see on him the same general dingy-white color and that it gets a bit paler in the tail, feet, and base of the crest than the rest of the body. He doesn't have as much of that color as OP's bird, possibly because of being S/s+, though unconfirmed. This is how this kind of leakage tends to show up, however. (He also has a little bit of a yellowish patch on his back and side right now from being poo'd on, so don't mind that )

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This is another male (not mine) confirmed paint through breeding who shows it better; darkest in the hackles and back, dingy in the chest and wings, paler in the tail, feet, and crest:

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This dingy leakage is pretty well established as a thing that happens in breeding Paint Silkies. A lot refer to it as 'champagne' leakage if that helps with searching for more about it, but bear in mind it's not the same thing as the 'champagne-blond' dominant gold dilution gene.





That does not look familiar to me in my crossings with walnut combs, if I'm being honest. Hwever, I do know that there are genes that smooth combs out or add bumps, hence why for example both Wyandottes and Redcaps both have rose combs R/? (rose being dominant, they could be either R/R or R/r+ with the same effect), but they are vastly different in appearance. So to me, he does look like P/P and R/? as he should have, just with something else modifying the base shape. Sorry that I don't have any definite answers for you on that, though!

Thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge!

Do you have any recommendations on sources that are easy to understand for me to read and start learning some foundational knowledge about chicken genetics? I've found some articles before that were so far over my head I decided genetics weren't for me, but this discussion on Skade and Chonkers has me intrigued to at least learn some basics.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

That's tough for me, to be honest. I have a background in science from which I've been practiced at reading and understanding pretty complex scientific writing, so I sort of went into chicken genetics already deep into the heavy stuff. However, the site that hosts the chicken genetics calculator also has this article that's sort of a run-down for beginners that might be a good place to start: https://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

I also highly recommend just playing around with the genetics calculator, as just doing that gave me a better understanding of how certain plumage genetics interact with one another. You just have to bear in mind that the little image it generates is not always completely accurate to the actual results of a cross (for example, it does not show the paint flecks on I/i+ E/E Paint-patterned birds, nor the dingy look that can occur with paint, or the color leakage expected when crossing solid black to patterns, etc.), it's just meant to give you a simple example of what the results might look like. The one I linked above is the basic version that just has plumage genes, but there are others with more genes included, like comb genes, frizzle or silkie feathering, basic leg feathering, etc. This version is generally my go-to when I want to plug something in real quick and see what might happen: http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

@NatJ Don't you have some beginner resources for genetics as well or am I misremembering that?

 

[2ndTink]

That's tough for me, to be honest. I have a background in science from which I've been practiced at reading and understanding pretty complex scientific writing, so I sort of went into chicken genetics already deep into the heavy stuff. However, the site that hosts the chicken genetics calculator also has this article that's sort of a run-down for beginners that might be a good place to start: https://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

I also highly recommend just playing around with the genetics calculator, as just doing that gave me a better understanding of how certain plumage genetics interact with one another. You just have to bear in mind that the little image it generates is not always completely accurate to the actual results of a cross (for example, it does not show the paint flecks on I/i+ E/E Paint-patterned birds, nor the dingy look that can occur with paint, or the color leakage expected when crossing solid black to patterns, etc.), it's just meant to give you a simple example of what the results might look like. The one I linked above is the basic version that just has plumage genes, but there are others with more genes included, like comb genes, frizzle or silkie feathering, basic leg feathering, etc. This version is generally my go-to when I want to plug something in real quick and see what might happen: http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

@NatJ Don't you have some beginner resources for genetics as well or am I misremembering that?

I had looked at both the simple and more complex genetics calculators before and quickly got lost I am ready to give them another try though, I was trying to over simplify their genetics and it was just causing me frustrations when it wasn't showing what I thought it should. Or I didn't even know where to start with all the capital and lowercase letters + and -

I'm about due for a new hobby, so maybe chicken genetics will be it!

 

[NatJ]

@NatJ Don't you have some beginner resources for genetics as well or am I misremembering that?

I don't know how beginner-friendly it is, but this is the one I usually recommend:
https://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page0.html
That page links to one about basic genetics, one that discusses some chicken-specific genes, and one with a table of genes (name, abbreviation, a line or two about what it does.)

I had looked at both the simple and more complex genetics calculators before and quickly got lost I am ready to give them another try though, I was trying to over simplify their genetics and it was just causing me frustrations when it wasn't showing what I thought it should. Or I didn't even know where to start with all the capital and lowercase letters + and -

I can try to explain that part:

Each dropdown box represents one locus (place on the chromosome). It has a list of all the possible pairs of genes at that spot (pair of genes, because the chicken inherits one from the father and one from the mother, making two.)

Each gene has a name, but people quickly get tired of typing out the names. So the genes have abbreviations. The abbreviation usually has something to do with the name, like B for Barred. A capital letter is used for a dominant gene, a lowercase letter for a recessive gene. They typically get the same letter, just capital/lowercase forms. The original wild-type form (found in the wild Red Jungle Fowl) gets marked with +. The wild-type form (marked with +) is the default setting for every gene in the calculator. So resetting the calculator is the same as changing all the genes back to the ones marked with +.

Barred is B, dominant over the wild-type not-barred gene b+. When there is another gene whose name starts with the same letter, it needs a different abbreviation. So Bl is blue (dominant) and bl+ is not-blue (recessive, wild-type form.)

Some of the genes end up with rather complicated names, with abbreviations coming from them. One that is often called "Cream" was named "Inhibitor of Gold" by the person who first studied and wrote about it, and it has the abbreviation Ig (with the recessive wild-type form being ig+) The recessive white gene has the abbreviation c, because the dominant wild-type form C+ is needed for the chicken to express "color." Similar logic has been used when naming some of the other ones that seem to not make sense (it usually makes some kind of sense if you dig deep enough, but tracking it down can sometimes take a lot of effort.)

When there are more than two alleles (gene options) at one locus (place on the chromosome), they usually get abbreviations that start with the same letter. So E is Extended Black, a dominant gene. e+ is the wild-type recessive form. But then we have E^Wh (Wheaten) and e^b (Partridge or Brown) and E^R (Birchen, but it has an R because e^B was already taken.) The capital/lowercase letters somewhat reflect which of those are dominant over which other ones.

The - is used when there is no second gene in a pair. This happens with the ones on the Z sex chromosome. Roosters have ZZ, hens have ZW. That means roosters can have two genes (example: B/B for Barring, or b+/b+ for not-barred, or B/b+ for one each of barring and not-barred). Hens with sex chromosomes ZW can only have one of those genes, because they only have one Z chromosome. So the - indicates that a hen has no second gene in that pair, because she's got a W chromosome instead: B/- for a Barred hen, b+/- for a hen that is not-barred. The b+/- means the recessive not-barred gene (b) which is the wild-type form (+) paired with ( / ) no other gene (-).

Some genes are actually incompletely dominant, meaning one copy of the gene has some effect but a second copy of the gene makes a bigger effect. Blue is an example of this: one copy of the blue gene turns the black on a chicken into blue, but two copies of the blue gene makes a bigger effect, turning the black into splash rather than into blue. The not-blue gene (allows normal black) is definitely the recessive in that pair of genes, so we often call Blue dominant, but "incompletely dominant" is a bit more precise. Most of the time that distinction does not matter very much, but every now and then it does. The e-locus genes (all 5 or more of them) include some that are incompletely dominant over each other (so chickens can show a mixed effect.)

I now have visions of a chocolate EE... I'm feeling like I know just enough on the chocolate genetics to be dangerous and likely wrong, but excited while doing it ok, so if I crossed a chocolate silkie rooster over a purebred black Ameraucana hen, I would get chocolate EE daughters and black EE sons. How close am I?

I think you have that correct.

I'm not sure how easily I could sell known cockerels, but I might be able to find homes for a few, they should be cute especially if they have cheeks and beards.

If you can't find good homes for the known cockerels, of course you can raise the chicks up a bit and eat them. Or sell them (young or older) to someone who wants to eat them. Or if you have some animal that likes to eat such things, you could cull the known males at a young age and feed them to the animal (pet snake, raw-fed dog or cat, pig that is happy to eat everything, etc.) If you don't have such an animal, someone else might (like if you have a friend with a pet snake.)

 

[2ndTink]

I think you have that correct.


If you can't find good homes for the known cockerels, of course you can raise the chicks up a bit and eat them. Or sell them (young or older) to someone who wants to eat them. Or if you have some animal that likes to eat such things, you could cull the known males at a young age and feed them to the animal (pet snake, raw-fed dog or cat, pig that is happy to eat everything, etc.) If you don't have such an animal, someone else might (like if you have a friend with a pet snake.)

Read once, going to have to re-read, but parts are starting to sink in

By this time next year I should be able to test the chocolate EE theory as I expect to hatch out both chocolate silkies and black Ameraucanas next month. And I can fairly confidently say that if I even only hatch out one chocolate silkie, it is bound to be a cockerel so...

I do have a friend with snakes, I hadn't thought of that. I'll check with her as an option. I'd like to put some of our chickens in the freezer. Oddly, our dog gets insanely itchy if she eats chicken, so she's no help.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I'm about due for a new hobby, so maybe chicken genetics will be it!

If you have any other questions or need clarifications on things as you're going along, don't be afraid to ask! Reading and rereading to absorb is a smart idea, I do that frequently myself.

And I can fairly confidently say that if I even only hatch out one chocolate silkie, it is bound to be a cockerel so...

Ah, I have that kind of luck, too! At least in this case a male is more beneficial for passing that gene on, though!

 

[2ndTink]

If you have any other questions or need clarifications on things as you're going along, don't be afraid to ask! Reading and rereading to absorb is a smart idea, I do that frequently myself.




Ah, I have that kind of luck, too! At least in this case a male is more beneficial for passing that gene on, though!

I would LOVE to ask another question! I just put my EE rooster in with some layers, I'm wanting to hatch some chicks from the 3 Black Astraulorp hens I have in there. The rooster is 3 years old, was supposed to be a pullet, but the group of EEs I bought with him are great layers and the BAs are now 4 years old and have been super healthy, and consistent layers. I'm just going to hatch out a few to add a pullet or two back in the layer flock. I'm assuming these will be good layers and robust as far as health goes.

I am so curious to have some input as to what he is genetically and what might happen crossed to the black hens. I'm assuming most will be black, and may have some leakage, but if he carries blue, I may get some blue chicks.

Here are a few photos of him, he's mean so the photos I have aren't super close or well posed... we have a strained relationship I'll keep looking for another photo that shows his chest better, he has kind of laced blue feathers.

I'm thinking he carries a blue gene and probably homozygous for gold, and I'm lost after that





Also, I haven't researched what makes chickens brown (other than chocolate) but am I right that this EE is a black based bird with something causing it to express as brown? Is this dun?

 

[2ndTink]

Here are some younger photos

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I would LOVE to ask another question! I just put my EE rooster in with some layers, I'm wanting to hatch some chicks from the 3 Black Astraulorp hens I have in there. The rooster is 3 years old, was supposed to be a pullet, but the group of EEs I bought with him are great layers and the BAs are now 4 years old and have been super healthy, and consistent layers. I'm just going to hatch out a few to add a pullet or two back in the layer flock. I'm assuming these will be good layers and robust as far as health goes.

I am so curious to have some input as to what he is genetically and what might happen crossed to the black hens. I'm assuming most will be black, and may have some leakage, but if he carries blue, I may get some blue chicks.

Here are a few photos of him, he's mean so the photos I have aren't super close or well posed... we have a strained relationship I'll keep looking for another photo that shows his chest better, he has kind of laced blue feathers.

I'm thinking he carries a blue gene and probably homozygous for gold, and I'm lost after that
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Easter-eggers are tough because they generally have many heterozygous gene pairs and potentially have recessive genes hiding under more dominant genes. I do agree that he is blue, but to my eye he looks gold/silver split, or heterozygous for silver, S/s+, not homozygous gold, which would be s+/s+. He is also likely heterozygous for the pea comb gene based on the height of his comb, meaning he has one gene for pea comb and one gene for single comb, P/p+, and he appears to be split for the beard gene as well, Mb/mb+, but that's tricky to be certain of just on looks. He for certain has at least one beard gene, however.

Beyond that, I suspect that he has a reddening gene like mahogany or autosomal red due to the depth of red he has in some spots, and he looks like he could be duckwing or wheaten based, but it's hard to say which just from looking at him... If you have any pictures of him as a chick, that would help to determine which, but for the purposes of crossing him to Black Australorps, that likely won't make much of a difference in the offspring.

With Black Australorps, I would expect you to get 50% blue chicks and 50% black chicks. Yes, most likely they will have color leakage, the actual color of which depends on what gene the Australorps carry at the s-locus. His daughters should be about equal numbers of gold and silver leakage, as they inherit the gene for gold or silver only from their father and he has both. His sons, however, will inherit one copy from him and one from their mother, meaning that either way about half should have 'golden' (the term used to describe gold/silver split coloring) leakage, and the other half will either have gold or silver leakage depending on what the mother provides.

With single-combed mothers, you should also expect about half of the chicks to be single-combed and half to have a taller pea comb like their father. And if he is split for the beard gene as I suspect, about half will have a beard and half won't.

Note that all of the traits mentioned so far are completely independent of one another. In other words, you could have a blue chick with silver leakage, a beard, and a single comb, or a blue chick with gold leakage, a beard, and a pea comb, or a black chick with silver leakage, no beard, and a pea comb, etc.

Being an Easter-egger, though he does not lay eggs as a rooster, he also is likely to have the gene for blue egg shells that he could pass on to his offspring. If he's pure for that gene, then all of his daughters should lay greenish eggs (blue shell from him plus brown coating from the Australorp mother makes a green-colored egg). If he's split, then about half of his daughters will lay greenish and the other half some shade of brown. There is some linkage between the pea comb gene and the blue egg gene, so it's more likely that any of his daughters with pea combs will be the ones to inherit the blue shell gene and lay greenish eggs versus the ones with single combs, but it's not necessarily impossible for the single-combed daughters to do the same as well, so that'll mostly be a wait and see trait. His sons would also inherit this gene but not lay eggs, of course, so it'll be hard to tell which did or didn't inherit it without testcrossing them to see what their daughters lay, a very time-consuming endeavor.

The brown egg coating, for the record, is a polygenic trait, meaning multiple genes control it, and the rooster could have some of these genes as well, so it's hard to say exactly how much of a brown shell coating they will get from this combination.

Also, I haven't researched what makes chickens brown (other than chocolate) but am I right that this EE is a black based bird with something causing it to express as brown? Is this dun?

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Goodness, I had to do a double-take on this gal! She looks so similar to one of my EE hens, Endymion, that I thought you might have paid my chicken yard a visit for those pictures!

Looking at your bird, I don't see dun or any brown dilution of black, I see a silver-partridge type pattern with a reddening gene like the ones I mentioned before. The red and silver is kind of sprinkled throughout her plumage and that's what gives her a sort of gray-brown tone. At least, that's what it looks like to me.