Fact or Fiction? "Caine" and Poultry

[casportpony]

First up is "Neosporin with Pain Relief"


Is the active ingredient, Pramoxine (Pramocaine), really toxic to poultry? Where is the literature to back up this statement?

 

[sunflour]

Tried to meet your challenge and there is no google discoverable literature on it's use in poultry, but there is a paucity of information on anything poultry related unless it applies to commercial needs. Even the Avian Medicine sites don't even mention it.

But even for humans and mammalian farm animals, it is recommended to be used only on skin and not deep wounds.

 

[Lynn Manes]

Tried to meet your challenge and there is no google discoverable literature on it's use in poultry, but there is a paucity of information on anything poultry related unless it applies to commercial needs.  Even the Avian Medicine sites don't even mention it.

But even for humans and mammalian farm animals, it is recommended to be used only on skin and not deep wounds.

I just used the regular Neosporin on Diva's wound, which was dime sized and 1/4" deep showing her spine.It actually healed quickly, which really surprised me. I didn't bother to look up anything on it, bc I was in a hurry to get something I had in the house at the time. I do think, however,bc chickens can get so dirty dust bathing,that after putting a big glob of Neosporin into that wound,then covering it with a gauze pad and wrapping a roll of wide gauze around her body all to keep out as much bacteria as possible helped her. I don't think I also mentioned that she was in molt at the time, and I've read molting is a painful process for birds. Maybe I just got lucky with the Neosporin this time, I don't know.I'm just a gal who raises chickens, not an expert on bird medications. But in a pinch, I'd use it again on an open wound if it's all I had available at the time.Once I saw she was healed, I also put a little feather fixer in her feed as her molt he's also ended. Now she's back to her pretty little self with no side effects except that she still hates the rooster I was going to show you a pic of her wound, but I guess I deleted it, as I can't seem to find it now.Here's Diva now, and you can see her back is fine and all feathers have grown back in

 

[DwayneNLiz]

I just used the regular Neosporin on Diva's wound, which was dime sized and 1/4" deep showing her spine.It actually healed quickly, which really surprised me. I didn't bother to look up anything on it, bc I was in a hurry to get something I had in the house at the time. I do think, however,bc chickens can get so dirty dust bathing,that after putting a big glob of Neosporin into that wound,then covering it with a gauze pad and wrapping a roll of wide gauze around her body all to keep out as much bacteria as possible helped her. I don't think I also mentioned that she was in molt at the time, and I've read molting is a painful process for birds. Maybe I just got lucky with the Neosporin this time, I don't know.I'm just a gal who raises chickens, not an expert on bird medications. But in a pinch, I'd use it again on an open wound if it's all I had available at the time.Once I saw she was healed, I also put a little feather fixer in her feed as her molt he's also ended. Now she's back to her pretty little self with no side effects except that she still hates the rooster I was going to show you a pic of her wound, but I guess I deleted it, as I can't seem to find it now.Here's Diva now, and you can see her back is fine and all feathers have grown back in

Hi!!

It isnt a question on Neosporin but Neosporin WITH pain relief which is a creamy substance rather than the petroleum jelly looking stuff

I haven't been able to find much on it

She's a cute little bird, glad she healed up so well

 

[Lynn Manes]

Yes, I realized that, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in on Neosporin in general. But after I read your post, I went in to make doubly sure, and it WAS the one with Pain Relief in it after all. My DH buys this stuff,so I really thought it was the regular one. Now, turns out I'm more in the loop on this subject Thanks about Diva. She's the one who could live in your house and eat at your dinner table, bc she's so spoiled. Of which, btw, she does neither here

 

[DwayneNLiz]

Yes, I realized that, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in on Neosporin in general. But after I read your post, I went in to make doubly sure, and it WAS the one with Pain Relief in it after all. My DH buys this stuff,so I really thought it was the regular one. Now, turns out I'm more in the loop on this subject Thanks about Diva. She's the one who could live in your house and eat at your dinner table, bc she's so spoiled. Of which, btw, she does neither here

huh, strange, and good to know that it didnt kill her. So it was the creamy lotion not the petroleum jelly looking stuff?
I would sure think applying it directly to the spine would give us an answer of whether or not it was going to kill out chickens

lol, i can only imagine that's how she got her name

 

[casportpony]

Yes, I realized that, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in on Neosporin in general. But after I read your post, I went in to make doubly sure, and it WAS the one with Pain Relief in it after all. My DH buys this stuff,so I really thought it was the regular one. Now, turns out I'm more in the loop on this subject Thanks about Diva. She's the one who could live in your house and eat at your dinner table, bc she's so spoiled. Of which, btw, she does neither here

huh, strange, and good to know that it didnt kill her. So it was the creamy lotion not the petroleum jelly looking stuff?
I would sure think applying it directly to the spine would give us an answer of whether or not it was going to kill out chickens

lol, i can only imagine that's how she got her name

I think the neosporin with pain relief is a myth, and I recall reading a post where someone had used it on a very serious leg wound. The picture is still in my head, it was a duck leg with a white cream slathered all over it.

Like sunflour, I cannot find a single proper source that says the "caine" in neosporin is toxic, but will keep looking. What I did find is a well written post by someone here on BYC that says it can be used, so I will try to find that.

Sadly, the damage is done, 'cause thousands of people think it cannot be used, so the myth will live on forever, lol.

-Kathy

 

[Lynn Manes]

Yes, I realized that, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in on Neosporin in general. But after I read your post, I went in to make doubly sure, and it WAS the one with Pain Relief in it after all. My DH buys this stuff,so I really thought it was the regular one. Now, turns out I'm more in the loop on this subject Thanks about Diva. She's the one who could live in your house and eat at your dinner table, bc she's so spoiled. Of which, btw, she does neither here

huh, strange, and good to know that it didnt kill her. So it was the creamy lotion not the petroleum jelly looking stuff?
I would sure think applying it directly to the spine would give us an answer of whether or not it was going to kill out chickens

lol, i can only imagine that's how she got her name

Heres the tube. Says + Pain Relief as you can see, but it looks like petroleum jelly, not white or creamy. So,they must have another out there that says the same thing like you are describing. So, all I can say, is PLEASE don't go out and put the white creamy stuff on an open wound since it is not what I used. I don't want anyone's chickens dying as a result of what I said I used.

 

[DwayneNLiz]

I agree that the pain relief kind has no facts backing up that it is lethal, i have found NOTHING
but good to know for sure

I would use it, if thats what i had on hand, no questions

 

[casportpony]

I was curious about why I see so many people posting not to use any products with topical anesthetics in them (the 'caine' products). Where does the original information come from? The more things get repeated, the more people believe them- but from whence comes the ban? Yes, if you put too much lidocaine containing lotion on a sunburned kid (or probably anything small) you can cause harm- but a bit of topical antibiotic with a numbing agent in it on a chicken, I want to know why this is bad. Is the fear just urban myth & legend, or based in some fact? Please share!

dhlunicorn has the backup material for that. Benzocaine is used to euthanize small lab animals because it shuts down the nervous system. I lost a bird after applying a wound ointment that I didn't see contained, among many natural ingredients, benzocaine. Within 5 minutes, my rooster just collapsed after application. There was no warning on the box against using it on birds, per se, just against using on animals used for meat. Also, a BYCer (forgot who) said she applied benzocaine to some show birds who had foot injuries the day of the show and in five minutes, most of the were dead or dying. She PMd this to me after my rooster died. Said the extension agent told her dad that benzocaine can be fatal to birds and mentioned the lab animals being euthanized with it.

All that said, some birds may be more susceptible to it than others and it also may depend on if it's put on broken skin or part of the body with very active blood flow, like combs and wattles. I'd say it's not worth taking the chance.

Here is some mention of it in these two places, however, Diana has the documentation for it somewhere.

IACUC Approved Animal Euthanasia Methods for the University of Arizona

All methods used must be in compliance with the AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia, 2007
ed. (http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf).

Amphibians and Fish

Method Dosage Comments
Benzocaine hydrochloride 400 mg/liter bath
Pentobarbital sodium 60-100 mg/kg IV, IP, IPP
Tricaine methane sulfonate
(MS222)
3gm/liter bath buffered with
2.1gm/liter sodium bicarbonate​

Diamond Paws

Human Drugs that are safe for Dogs & Cats....

NOT SAFE
(If a drug is NOT listed here, please do not assume it is safe to give to your dog, always consult your veterinarian first)


Other common medicines and so called social "drugs" which definitely should not be given by owners to their pets are :

* Paracetamol
* Ibuprofen
* Acetaminophen (Tylenol)
* Alcohol of any kind
* Benzocaine
* The laxative phenolphthalein
* Iron supplements
* Vitamin D supplements
* Nebuliser medications prescribed for asthma
* Drugs used to control "fits" e.g. phenytoin (toxic in cats)
* Coffee and tea (due to the caffeine content)
* Cannabis or any other illegal drug.

All of the above have been documented to cause serious illness - and are potentially fatal . The message is - NEVER assume what is safe for you and your children is safe for your pet - the chances are it isn't.

​

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlhunicorn

I assure you this is no "urban myth" and is mentioned in several veterinary reference works ... (as the therapeutic dosage comes close to the toxic dosage >in the very few situations where I have read of -caine type med might be indicated it is always with an accompanying warning for the veterinarian) see below for one resource:

http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=practical&action=display&num=1158141893
(link to thread at my library on WOUND MANAGEMENT , where you will find:
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2003/august/Cousquer/Avian-Wound-Assessment.html
AVIAN WOUND MANAGEMENT :
....First aidTraumatised birds often have multiple injuries and may be further compromised by dehydration, malnutrition and other problems, especially if there has been a delay (hours or days) between injury and presentation [1]. Fluid and nutritional therapy and treatment for shock are critical in the early management of all traumatised birds. Overzealous wound and fracture treatment before stabilisation of the bird may prove fatal [1]. Some first aid of the wound, however, will inevitably be required.....
....Analgesia and antibiotics - broad spectrum antibiotics can be provided in the first instance: clavulanic acid potentiated amoxycillin (150mg/kg orally or subcutaneously) will provide cover against most aerobes and anaerobes. ....Local anaesthetics should not be used in birds due to the suggested sensitivity of birds to drugs of the procaine group "."

There is also a reference (warning similar to above) in one of the many articles by reknowned avian veterinarian Margaret Wissman.

Thanks! So the topical benzocaine is the main suspect, but they are possibly sensitive to the whole class. The euthanasia bath for fish and amphibians makes sense- as they absorb things through their skin readily. It is used safely for anesthesia in fish at lower concentration, but overdose is easy.
Here is a nice link with info by Dr Hawkins at the UCDavis School of Vet Med on pain management in birds. Has a summary of some of the meds in the lidocaine class- which was what I was familiar with. Lidocaine can/has been used and dosing guideline exist, but use with caution ect. I will stay away from the topicals (I have benzocaine in gel form, as well as it is in some blood stopping stypic powders- for trimming nails).
http://www.thebirdclinic.com/L13_Pain_and_Analdesia.htm

Above posts from this thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ucts-suburan-rural-myth-or-fact#post_17484768

-Kathy