Anyone seen Angel Wing in Meat Birds? Seeing it in New Hampshires and White Rangers, wondering causes/solutions?

[FunClucks]

Has anyone had Angel Wing show up in their meat birds? Any idea what causes this in chickens or what to do about it? Should I remove these birds from my breeding population? I have 2 month old Freedom Ranger New Hampshires (dual purpose but optimized for meat) and White Rangers (CX derived 3month broiler) and I have 1-2 birds of each variety displaying Angel Wing symptoms that just onset in the last week or two. I fed them 20% chick starter for 2 weeks, then 23-24% meat bird feed for at least a month, then changed back to 20% feed about two weeks ago when I saw a varus/valgus deformity in one of the New Hampshires. (Varus/valgus for mine was when the leg bone beneath the hock joint decided to grow at a 30 degrees angle towards to the outside of the chicken.). The feeding has been a bit more back and forth than that based on what type of feed I had available and what my kids happened to grab that day, but that's the general gist of it.

I'm trying to keep a few hens and a rooster or two (best ones) of both the NH and the WR as a breeding meat flock so I don't have to buy eggs/chicks anymore, but my assessment of the genetic health of this population/these breeds is trending downwards as we go on.

Any ideas if Angel Wing is solely due to protein level in the food (is it the same as with ducks? How much protein can chickens have before this is an issue?) or is there a genetic component I should be culling out?

I just got to the third generation of Murray McMurray Ginger Broilers, and there are genetic issues with small eggs and thin shells in all the hens I have remaining (3), one's laying soft shelled eggs often, and very low % of the fertile eggs develop to hatching (fertility has decreased drastically with each generation), so I was planning to start over with these NH and WR to see if I could get a meat bird breeding population going, but now I'm not sure if using the NHs and/or White Rangers are a good path.

 

[Stravager]

@NatJ on genetics? I think I seen them answer a bunch of genetics related questions...
I think it's typically called Slipped Wing not Angel Wing in chickens, and it can be either a genetic issue or a diet related problem. A lot of chickens seem to grow out of the crooked wings, but I haven't seen a lot of posts regarding legs...
My personal opinion would be to cull them from a breeding program, but hoping an expert will pitch in?

 

[NatJ]

@NatJ on genetics? I think I seen them answer a bunch of genetics related questions...
I think it's typically called Slipped Wing not Angel Wing in chickens, and it can be either a genetic issue or a diet related problem. A lot of chickens seem to grow out of the crooked wings, but I haven't seen a lot of posts regarding legs...

Unfortunately I don't know anything about the genetics involved here, or about that specific condition.

My personal opinion would be to cull them from a breeding program, but hoping an expert will pitch in?

Unless someone more knowledgeable chimes in, that is what I would do too.

 

[FunClucks]

@Stravager and @NatJ thanks for your input! I only have 10-12 birds of each breed, and I found a few more with slipped wing, so having to cull all of these is going to put a pretty good dent in things. The White Rangers have another month to go, so I'm keeping an eye on them right now. They're starting to be CX awkward, but can all still walk and get around all right.

I've got two FR New Hampshires (hen and roo) that I put in with my eggers, as soon as they went out to the coop, so they've been on 20% protein since about 4 wks. They're appear ~30% smaller than the ones I've been raising as meat birds, and no issues so far. It will be interesting to continue comparing, although my sample size is very small.

 

[NatJ]

@Stravager and @NatJ thanks for your input! I only have 10-12 birds of each breed, and I found a few more with slipped wing, so having to cull all of these is going to put a pretty good dent in things. The White Rangers have another month to go, so I'm keeping an eye on them right now. They're starting to be CX awkward, but can all still walk and get around all right.

I've got two FR New Hampshires (hen and roo) that I put in with my eggers, as soon as they went out to the coop, so they've been on 20% protein since about 4 wks. They're appear ~30% smaller than the ones I've been raising as meat birds, and no issues so far. It will be interesting to continue comparing, although my sample size is very small.

With actual Cornish Cross, the breeding stock is fed differently than the ones being raised for meat (more like the ones you have in with the eggers.)

You may find that is the best way to manage your breeding stock as well. Of course that does make it harder to select breeding stock, because you cannot see how they look at butchering age on a meat-bird diet.

 

[FunClucks]

With actual Cornish Cross, the breeding stock is fed differently than the ones being raised for meat (more like the ones you have in with the eggers.)

You may find that is the best way to manage your breeding stock as well. Of course that does make it harder to select breeding stock, because you cannot see how they look at butchering age on a meat-bird diet.

An extra wrinkle to the process... Was hoping to avoid having to do this, but you have a good point.

 

[NatJ]

An extra wrinkle to the process... Was hoping to avoid having to do this, but you have a good point.

I think that past a certain point, extreme early growth is going to be incompatible with chickens becoming healthy adults that can produce the next generation.

So yes, you might have to either manage the breeders differently, or else breed from ones that do not get as big (which means each meat bird will probably be a bit smaller as well.)

 

[Molpet]

Do you have a picture of the angel wing?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

"Angel Wing" isn't well understood, but @NatJ is right on all of the above (that is, is consistent with the research). The condition appears to have both genetic and dietary components. For unknown reason, it tends to be asymetrical in presentation. Birds that put on mass before bone/tendon are adequately developed are more prone to it. There is limited (and old) research suggesting excess protein, particularly in water fowl, increases the incidence of it. There is much more research (and newer) suggesting an excess of carbs increases the incidence far more than an excess of protein - particularly in waterfowl. There is some (limited) research suggesting niacin may have some buffering effect.

High protein, high carb diets and rapid growth rate are of course the hallmark of Cx (and similar meat bird) management - but because they aren't intended for long lfe, and because "angel wing" won't keep them from going to slaughter, there is very limited research (no money in it). and yes, that may be one of the (many, many) factors that lead to completely different feed management for breeder stock of "meat birds".

There is anecdotal evidence - a lot of it - that angel wing can be successfully treated in must birds by careful immobaliation of the affected wing(s) until the joints have time to more fully develop. It is, in fact, the standard of treatment.

But were it me, and I was considering long term breeding for sustainability, knowing that I was going to continue with a similar feed regimen, I would cull for table and preference other (not affected) birds as breed stock.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and FWIW I raise all my birds on 24% protein feed for roughly the first 12 weeks of life, sometimes a little less, depending on when they join the adult flock, and 20% thereafter. My ducks (pekins) get supplimental niacin via a sprinkling of nutritional yeast before joining the main flock

No Angel Wing.

I also have not had the massive growth rate (relative to a chicken) claimed for Pekin ducks, for whatever reason. Yes, they grow fast, but a proper Cx puts weight on faster than my TSC pekins and keeps putting weight on after my Pekins seem to stop. That may be a caveat in this case on the lack of angel wing in my flock. Also small sample size - I've raised maybe 30-ish pekins in the last few years and less than 200 chickens, mostly hatchery DP breeds.